New Hope for Long COVID at Riordan Clinic

Riordan Clinic [00:00:00]:
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Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:00:56]:
Well, welcome everyone to Welcome to a special edition of the Real Health Podcast. I’m Dr. Ron Hunninghake, and this is Dr. Michelle Niesley. And today we are going to discuss new hope for long COVID.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:01:10]:
New hope for long COVID. So tell me a little bit more about what you’re seeing in practice from a long COVID perspective. What are your patients coming in and discussing as they’re identifying as their problem?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:01:25]:
It’s really kind of a confusing area in the sense that people know that there are a lot of folks out there who either had a severe case or even a mild case of COVID that they kind of got over, and then they started to get worse. And there were these symptoms and those symptoms— headaches, backaches, fatigue, digestive problems, cancer, all kinds of things. And so there’s this— and it’s getting clearer now that there really is a long-term COVID buildup in the in the body that people can’t get over.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:02:03]:
And I think there’s been some newer research on microclots, correct?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:02:06]:
Yeah, so this is where the trail has led, is that why do people have these very diverse symptoms? Because they can be just about anything. And so the Journal of Medical Virology just this past year came out with this explanation that maybe long COVID is due to an effect of the spike protein on the endothelial lining of the various small blood vessels such that it roughs up the lining and little tiny clots, microclots, start to form. And this reduces the circulation to that area, and that area could be anywhere on the person.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:02:46]:
So it’s almost like having small potholes. We’re talking about the inside of the blood vessel and almost having small potholes. And instead of just filling in those potholes to the, you know, the level of the street, so to speak, it sounds like the microclots maybe build up even beyond what originally would have been there.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:03:03]:
Whatever is happening, it’s reducing blood flow to the capillaries, and— but it’s not such that you get gangrene or some horrible thing, but that organ doesn’t function as well. It could be the gut, it could be the brain, could be the kidney, whatever. Because this, this is what’s been so annoying about long COVID, is it’s so hard to pin it down.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:03:27]:
And I think when we hear clots, a lot of the general public thinks about heart attack and stroke, and that’s a different situation. Than these microclots, correct?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:03:35]:
Yeah, those would be macroclots. And so microclots are gonna be very tiny, but they’re gonna occlude or block capillary flow, and that’s gonna result in malfunctioning or some kind of symptom within the body. But when the doctor goes to look it up, there’s nothing there.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:03:53]:
And there aren’t really good blood tests for this necessarily, are there?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:03:57]:
Well, there is one. And so the D-dimer, which is a test that is often used in the emergency room setting, if you come in short of breath and the doctor wants to check to see if you have a pulmonary embolus clot, he’ll do a D-dimer, even a heart attack, they’ll do a D-dimer. And if there are fragments of a clot in the blood, that’ll show up in the D-dimer. So that test is starting to be looked at as a possible marker.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:04:21]:
But do all patients with potential long COVID, do all of them have high D-dimers?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:04:27]:
No, we haven’t seen that. And what I’ve noticed, and since we’ve been looking into this over the last 3 months, is that some of the really long, long COVIDs, like 5, 6, 7 years, I think their, their microclots have settled in, and, and they don’t really show a very high level of D-dimer, but they have the classic symptoms. And they, they may have had the vaccination, they may have not had the vaccination, but they’ve had the, the illness.

Riordan Clinic [00:04:51]:
Sure.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:04:52]:
And, and so, so again, we can’t depend upon the D-dimer as being the ultimate test. Probably the best way is just the fact that people have a chronic illness that they can’t get over, and there is no other diagnosis.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:05:05]:
Okay. And so treating that becomes hard. Like you said, because it could be a variety of symptoms. It’s not just one obvious symptom. And so I know that we are here at the Riordan Clinic looking at a newer treatment for long COVID. So I’m wondering if you can speak a little bit about that.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:05:23]:
So back in the 1950s, we’ve done a lot of UBI treatments here for like the last 12 years, and, and that is a multi-spectrum, uh, range that we use. But there’s a, a special machine called a Hematogenous Oxidative Therapy UBI, which we would call it the HOT, right, UBI that has a special frequency, 254. And there’s— there is actually a copyright on that, but it’s open to the public. And the doctors in Switzerland began to use that with their long COVID patients and began to see some really good results. And so one of our consultants was able to bring that information back to us. And, uh, as a result, we decided, well, let’s look into this. And so we’ve tested— maybe we’ve treated over 30, 40 patients now who have had the long COVID symptoms with the HOT UBI. And then, uh, because we feel like we might be breaking up these microclots, we want to make sure that they don’t do any further harm. So we’re giving an intravenous vitamin C to follow. So we’re calling it HOT UBI plus IVC.

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Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:07:36]:
So how often are— when co-learners, when patients become co-learners here at the Riordan Clinic, how often are they getting that treatment? And I’m wondering, I know that we have the story of one co-learner who saw some pretty significant improvements, so I’m wondering if you can talk about the frequency of treatment and then give us just that case.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:07:53]:
I’ll put it all in one. That co-learner is a really valued patient of ours that’s been with us for 20 years, and then about 6 years ago became chronically ill. This is even before COVID and, uh, and we’ve done just about everything, and she’s tried everything, uh, to no avail. And she couldn’t even kneel down in church because her, her knees were so painful and she was very tired. And so, uh, after we got this therapy, because we had done so much for her without benefit, I thought I would call her and invite her to come back to be one of the pioneers for us. And sure enough, she did, uh The standard we’re doing now is to have patients come in and do— they’ll have to have some lab work, and then they will, they will get their first, uh, HOT therapy. And then we want them to wait a day and then repeat the therapy 48 hours later, which she did. And she— a week and a half later, I called her and she had said it was dramatic for her. Now, I’m not saying it’s dramatic for everyone, but for her, she could now kneel down in church, she could, uh, go upstairs stairs. She couldn’t go upstairs. She can go out shopping not once a day but 3 times a day.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:09:10]:
Yeah.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:10]:
And, and, and not be so tired. And, uh, she was one of the ones that the D-dimer really didn’t show elevated, and we haven’t had a chance to recheck it, so I don’t know.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:09:19]:
Interesting.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:20]:
So, uh, this is— she’s an example of one of the people that we feel really excited that this could be a breakthrough for people who have been stuck in— if it is long COVID, maybe that, or maybe just chronic fatigue.

Riordan Clinic [00:09:33]:
Yeah.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:34]:
Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:09:35]:
Very good. So what think is important for the public to know? Anything else that we haven’t talked about when it comes to addressing long COVID? I mean, I think that the other thing that we are also interested in looking at is making sure that we understand the terrain that we’re working with, with the co-learners. So can you speak a little bit to that?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:52]:
Well, as always, we, we’ve always emphasized safety, and so we’re not really doing anything that we haven’t done before. We’re— we’ve, like I say, we’ve done UBIs for for 12 years. We’ve done IVCs for 35 years, uh, and longer than that. And so we’re— but what we haven’t had is this special frequency. And it’s really interesting. The blood is withdrawn into a 50cc syringe. The other syringe has 100% oxygen. So this is an oxidative therapy.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:10:24]:
The—

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:10:25]:
they’re connected by tubing, and then that tubing has a crystalline that’s in the machine, the ultraviolet machine, giving this special frequency. And the nurse is literally, we call it ping-ponging the blood back and forth, getting it mixed. When it first comes out, it’s dark red. After about 2 or 3 ping-pongs, it’s starting to turn cherry red, and, uh, and it’s frothing. And so there’s some kind of oxidative process, hematogenous oxidative therapy, that’s being done. That’s a 3-minute procedure. We basically put it back, back into a, a saline drip, and we drip it back in over about 20 minutes, and then finish up with a anywhere from a 15 to a 50 gram IV vitamin C. So the procedure can be done, the HOT procedure in 15 minutes and then the vitamin C for about an hour. So it’s only going to take about an hour and a half of a patient’s time. And there so far we’ve not had any adverse effects at all.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:11:23]:
Ask about side effects.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:11:25]:
Right. And so we— there are reports there’s a place in Arkansas that’s been doing it then. And there have been a few people that have been really tired after the procedure, but that’s maybe 1 in 100. Okay, not, not very common. And so we think it’s going to be something that the average person can do, and we hope that we, as we gather data, will not only find out the effectiveness of this but also more and more about the underlying pathophysiology.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:11:52]:
Seems like we’re on the right track with all the scientific publications that have come out recently.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:11:57]:
It’s right now, there’s just not much else available. I mean, most of the doctors will treat symptoms you know, and that’s fine. But Riordan Clinic has always been about root cause, and, and we think this might be a root cause that we’re getting the, uh, the capillary beds to open up. Better blood flow, better oxygenation, better energy.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:12:17]:
And this could have ramifications not only for long COVID, but if we’re talking about breaking up of microclots and improving circulation.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:12:25]:
Yes.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:12:25]:
What other conditions could—

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:12:27]:
in the future? Dr. Levy is one of our consultants here, is— and he’s actually the one that helped us helped us find out about this. He thinks that maybe the aging process— maybe we all, as we get older, or people who have been chronically ill— maybe capillary dysfunction due to these microclots play a role here. We don’t know yet, but we’re certainly willing to use this on, on anyone who’s got a chronic condition who otherwise has not gotten good results. And that’s part of the Riordan approach. We don’t just do this treatment. We also look at nutrient levels. We also look at hormones. We are very much into environmental toxins and documenting those, and we have therapies to help people detoxify. So again, this is not meant to be necessarily a one-off that cures everything, but it could be a treatment modality that in conjunction with the RIRN approach could give us better long-term results with our patients.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:13:25]:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about that study.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:13:29]:
You betcha.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:13:29]:
Yeah.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:13:30]:
Thank you, everyone.

Riordan Clinic [00:13:33]:
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