Looking Back and Moving Forward at Riordan Clinic

Riordan Clinic [00:00:00]:
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Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:00:56]:
Well, welcome, everyone. Dr. It’s Dr. Ron Hunninghake. We’re back again for another episode of our Real Health Podcast, and today I’m being ambushed. I’m going to be interviewed today by Michelle Niesley. Dr. Michelle Niesley, who’s our naturopathic oncologist. She’s our chief scientist, and just recently she’s become our Chief Executive Officer. Michelle, thank you for being you, but this is kind of a surprise to me, but let’s do it. What’s the topic?

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:01:29]:
We wanted an opportunity. We just came off of the Cancer Care Reimagined Conference. You and I did a presentation on the first, second, and Third Medical Revolution. It was something that I thought would be really important for our audience to get a better idea of. I just thought this would be a good idea for us to be able to flip the script a little bit, since you’re always on the end of asking questions, making sure that we can, you know, talk about 50 years of Riordan Clinic. But I want to start out because of what was just spoken about at the conference, really introducing that idea of the first medical revolution, second medical revolution, and then the third medical revolution. So can you talk to our audience about that a little bit?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:02:14]:
So really, we wanted to. This. We, you and I did this together as the opening presentation. And, you know, we’re. What we’re really doing is kind of putting Riordan in a kind of a big space because people think of, okay, well, what were all these medical revolutions? Well, you know, back 2,000 years ago, it was pretty fundamental stuff, and people weren’t living all that long. And then it was in the 17th century that the true first medical revolution occurred, because the scientific revolution itself began. And this is where we started looking at the underlying mechanistic functions of things. Why do Things happen the way they do. And so in the first medical revolution, we were able to identify germs and we were able to identify antibiotics, and we were able to, you know, use our ability as humans to really divide and conquer. Look at the basic fundamental working parts of what is it that makes things click? Not, you know, this. The, the medical revolution itself was all about the human side. The, the first revolution was just looking at how life works and how this, how science works. So it was the advent of science, but in the process, we kind of left out the personal side. So in a sense, medicine became depersonalized. And so the second medical revolution was thinking about, you know, all the facets, our relationships, our quality of sleep, a lot of things that we now are thinking of as in, as, you know, the new medicine. This, you know, a lot of people are thinking of functional medicine because Dr. Riordan started the center for the improvement of human functioning. So really, a lot of that was the second medical revolution where we looked at the psychology and, and how people ate and multiple different factors that entered into what constitutes health. But even that has been a problem because it’s not been very well accepted because most of conventional medicine is still. Back in the first medical revolution, it’s all a kind of a left brain approach. And what we really need is to get the right brain involved, because if people haven’t heard about this, but the right hemisphere looks at things more holistically. And so holistic medicine is another term that was, that’s being used in this second medical revolution. So what you and I talked about, Michelle, was how this actually represents the brain. The left brain is more fragmentation, scientific, cut it apart and look at the pieces. The right brain is, oh, let’s put the pieces back together and see if we can see the holistic picture. And then the third revolution is the integration of those two points of view. The corpus callosum is the part of the brain that allows the two hemispheres to communicate with one another. And I guess here at Riordan Clinic, what we’ve, what we’ve decided is, especially as we’re dealing with more and more cancer patients, you can’t just do one or the other side. You know, you can’t just look at the what, what. The, the oncology does a great job of identifying the tumor, classifying it, and developing a treatment for it, but they don’t take into consideration the whole person, the diet, the exercise, the stress, some of these things. And so that part is now being recognized as being very important. And so what we think the third Medical revolution is, is really learning how to integrate both sides of the equation.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:06:06]:
Right. And how important they are. I liked the story that you told also of the bird pecking at the seeds and the pebbles. Do you want to talk a little about that? To demonstrate how these, these two sides can actually come together.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:06:18]:
Right. And so the, the, the, the, the, the fact that brains are split, it’s, it’s all throughout nature. And so this is not just humans. And so the little bird, you know, it needs that, that left side of the brain to, to kind of zone in or focus in on is that seed healthy for me? Do I recognize it as good food? And so while it’s focusing on that, if it’s not paying attention to its environment, the hawk could come down and take the bird out. So you have to have focus, but you have to have the broad, broad perspective as well in order to survive and to thrive.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:06:59]:
Yeah. And I think we also spoke about how the corpus callosum, you know, allows crosstalk, but also inhibits certain information too. Sublation. So do you want to speak a little bit about that?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:07:11]:
Yeah. So sublation is a philosophical term. You know, when you, when you’re stuck in a kind of like a dichotomy, you know, the left brain does this and the right brain does that. You know, how do we, how do we get them to talk with one another? And so philosophically, you, you accept the fact that there’s going to be this dichotomy, but you look for, in a way, I like the word transcendence, where you look above that and see that there is a higher perspective here to where the two can work together. So this is what we’re talking about is the third medical revolution that conventional doctors and alternative doctors or functional doctors, we can learn how to talk with one another and respect the fact that both sides work well together if they will open up. Because, you know, there can be bias on the holistic side. You know, there’s a lot of people say, well, just do nutrition, you know, or, you know, those doctors, they don’t know anything. Well, doctors do know a lot, the conventionally trained doctors. And. But now we’re realizing that the wellness perspective, the food, the sleep, all of these things are equally important in terms of maintaining really good optimal health. And so if we can make that working together be more effective, then I think we will all be served as far as being healthier and the quality of medicine, functional medicine, will improve in this country.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:08:44]:
Yeah, I agree. And as you know, the word doctor comes from the Latin Word docere, which means to teach. And so at Riordan, yes, we have our, our patients are not called patients, they’re co learners. Right. Because we do have that dialogue with our patients. You know, a diagnosis tells us a constellation of symptoms, but it doesn’t always tell us why. And so I think in that co learner relationship that we have with our patients, also trying to approach our other medical providers with that same education, that same dialogue is really one of the hallmarks of our providers at the Riordan Clinic.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:21]:
So, and you just gave me kind of an insight that the name of our conference, which we were very pleased with, we had such excellent speakers and it just came off as better than I thought it ever could. But the title of the conference was Cancer Care Reimagined. And I think the imagination is that sublation part. You’ve got to have a really good imagination to see how these two, what would be antithetical brain functions, to see how they could go above and see the bigger picture in order to get better results. So using our imaginations in a very creative way, we can probably do better with our chronic illness care in this country and in this world.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:10:06]:
Well, and I think that segues perfectly into. We’re celebrating 50 years of the Riordan Clinic. And I would argue Dr. Riordan had to be pretty creative when he started this, this whole adventure. Right. And so I’m wondering also, we’ve been talking a lot about kind of the first generation of Riordan Clinic, the second generation, and now the third generation. And I’m wondering if you can speak a little bit in your mind to those different generations and the role that they played in bringing us to where we are today.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:10:35]:
So the, the, this is perfect. The first generation really is. You could, you could almost say it was Dr. Riordan and Mrs. Olive Garvey. Dr. Riordan being the left brain again, he was a regular psychiatrist, but he was starting to see that conventional psychiatry just wasn’t doing it. And he was thinking that there had to be other nutritional factors that were involved. And by good fortune he ran into Mrs. Olive Garvey, who had also, as a right brain thinker, but also a strong left brain, brain thinker herself. She was, had a big, a lot of farm property and she understood, she learned that the quality of the soil determines the health of the crop. And she got to thinking about her grandchildren, who, who she loves and, and who today are really carrying on that, that whole support and propagation of this, this, this approach of the Riordan Clinic. Anyway, she wanted them to get their Their nutrient levels tested and none of the doctors knew how to do it because in the left brain world of classical medicine, nutrition was not part of it. So so basically when she found Dr. Riordan, he was willing to open up. He had already started to open up his right brain seeing that, yeah, nutrition and exercise and all the wellness stuff that we now take for granted. You know, wellness was a new word when I was a medical student. And so the wellness approach really started to bring the two hemispheres together that way. But now we’re looking once again integrative once again. So this actually. So the first, the first, I guess you would say salvo. The first group of people that went through the Riordan Clinic, Dr. Riordan being the head, represents that initial breakthrough. The second group is when after Dr. Riordan died, it was really about sustaining progress in what we were doing. And we continued with the scientific conferences. He had done, he had done 17, we did another seven. And this, this one that we just finished was the 8th. So that gave us our 25th international conference on human functioning. So it’s, it’s Riordan Clinic’s all about education and learning and opening up possibilities. And so that’s the second. And now the third represents, we’re really starting off with like you and Dr. Rose and many of our nurses, a lot of our staff now, they’re third generation in that they’re coming in and they’re part of this growing idea that we, we want to create integrative care not just in cancer, but in heart disease. Integrative care in infectious disease, psychiatry. It has to be an integrative approach. Given the extreme severity of all the problems that we’re dealing with in the modern era.

Riordan Clinic [00:13:44]:
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Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:14:44]:
Yeah. And, and respectfully, I think you downplayed the second generation to a certain degree because you’ve played such a key, key role. I mean you’ve been with the clinic for 34 years.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:14:54]:

35. 35 years.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:14:56]:
35 years, yeah. So I mean you’ve been integral from not only learning from Dr. Riordan and then being able to kind of take the helm once Dr. Riordan passed and lead us to the point that we’re at now. Do you have a favorite story or two about Dr. Riordan that you would like to share with the audience?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:15:15]:
Well, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s hundreds of stories. I mean I really like the, his when we were talking about putting in the gratitude trail which goes around our pump, you know, he was a fan of Dr. Hans Selye, who was the doctor that really got into whole stress theory though, how stress can have such an impact on our lives and we really need to do things to kind of dissipate the negative aspects of stress. And so Riordan used to say that Dr. Hans Selye said that when, when stressed, express gratitude, be thankful for what you’ve got. And so, so Riordan could be a little bit gruff at times, but generally he was very supportive and, and kind of the other part of him was that you never quite knew what he was going to say. He was, he was willing to think outside the box. And so an outside the box thinker is very interesting to kind of follow around and work with. I mean I, I’m probably, I’m not, I’m not going to say I’m don’t think outside the box, but he would do it on a minute by minute basis. And so, so it was always great to come to work and see what else we, we would be doing new because the staff was always expecting the Unexpected with Dr. Riordan.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:16:33]:
Absolutely. So thinking also about having our 50th anniversary. I mean I look into the future. We have this third generation now of providers and staff that are poised to take us forward. I’m wondering in if you could wave a magic wand. Where would you like to see the Riordan clinic go in the next 10, 20, 50 years?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:16:57]:
I think I’d like to see it really open up co learning. I really feel Dr. Riordan’s, one of his huge insights was that, well then the way he put it to me was that sure, we can see a patient, we can listen to the patient, we can from our medical training, make a diagnosis, do Some lab work, make a diagnosis, make a treatment plan. But he liked that. What was that old Indian saying that if you really want to know someone, you have to walk, walk a mile in their moccasins. And so in that sense, he felt that as we as, as providers, doctors, nurses, naturopaths, all the various, you know, all the various types of medicine that’s out there, we need to be willing to open up, to learn about what’s unique about the patient that’s sitting in front of us. And that’s what co learning is, is, is understanding that they have unique situations. They may have a very precise diagnosis, coronary artery disease, but there could be many assets or aspects of that, different variations of that depending upon, Is it due to heavy metal toxicity, Is it due to stress, Is it due to a poor diet, Is it just a genetic factor? What are they eating? What are the, what are the stressors that they’ve grown up with? You know, the past history. So all of these things start to become relevant when you look at patients as co learners. And there’s a respect for patients that I sometimes I often in, in my early medical days, I thought the patient was kind of just being given a, a diagnosis, but not really understanding what were the, all the generative factors of that diagnosis and not being empathetic enough. I mean, I think I understand we have to have a certain amount of distance, professional distance. But on the other hand, that also creates a barrier to really understanding what are the true root causes in that particular patient’s life and their beliefs and their habits that are sustaining their illness. Riordan didn’t like the term chronic illness. He called it sustained illness. And so our job was to help the patient identify those features that were keeping them stuck in their chronic illness. And that could be things that are invisible, like nutrient levels that we measure or like hormonal imbalances or heavy metal toxicity or all the various toxins that go into modern life. And this is why our integrative oncologists, when they see a new patient, it’s even much more than just the nutrient levels, which is. That’s 13 pages right there. But then looking at all the viral factors, all the environmental toxins, the heavy metals, all these kind of factors that can play a role in why the disease is being sustained. And here’s what we can do to identify that and take action to, to nip it in the bud.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:20:01]:
Yeah, I mean, that’s such a good point. I have patients from an integrative oncology perspective that’ll ask Just give me the top five things for breast cancer, or just give me the top five things I can do to make sure this type of cancer doesn’t recur. And my answer is always, it depends on what is the elephant in the room that we don’t know about. So I could be. I could recommend curcumin and melatonin and green tea, and there’s some vitamin D levels at a certain range. You know, those are not bad recommendations. But from the way I approach patient care and you do as well, to me, those are. Those are only the first step. Right. And looking beneath the surface. So I may have two patients, as you do as well, that may have the exact same diagnosis, but have very different plans, depending on what’s beneath the surface.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:20:47]:
So, yeah, Riordan’s way of. And real succinctly getting this point across to his audience is he would ask the audience, what’s the most important nutrient? And everyone would start thinking and say, oh, yeah, vitamin C, vitamin. He says, no, the most important nutrient is the one you personally are lowest in. That’s your most important nutrient. Because you can do all these other things really well. But if that’s an important nutrient and you don’t have it, it’s pulling the whole team down. It’s, it’s. It’s the lowest guy that loses the game, not the best player.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:21:19]:
Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that struck me as we’re coming to a close is the impact the Riordan Clinic has had internationally. So at our conference that we just had, we had representatives from Japan, from Taiwan. You know, Dr. Richard Cheng was present.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:21:40]:
Dr. Baghli from Algiers, Dr. Baghli from Algiers.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:21:43]:
We had, you know, Manickam coming from India. Right. So I’m wondering what, what do you think Dr. Riordan would have to say about how the Riordan Approach has not only permeated integrative medicine here in the US but internationally as well.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:22:00]:
Yeah. All of his speakers were international speakers for all the international conference. He, they. It was an international conference from the very beginning. And he felt that this was a worldwide event or not event, but it was. Something was happening that the world as a whole was starting to wake up, that we’ve got to look at health and in a bigger way because you can do everything else right. But if your health is bad, you’re going to be sinking. You know, life is not going to be good for you. And so health may be the most important thing, and I think most people value it, but it’s really when you start to lose your health, that you truly value it. And so this is prospective medicine in the sense where what we’re doing is help. And we have a lot of people who come, they say, well, I’m really not in that bad of shape, but I, I really want to stay well. Well, the same things that we would do to help a person who’s sick to get better, the identification of underlying causative factors so that that person can remediate those factors. That’s the same exact thing we need to do in prevention. And so one of the things we do here at the Riordan Clinic that you, you’re, you’re going to be part of, probably this may be one of the first times every year we do the same lab, or almost the same lab tests on all of our employees, because we really want our employees to be bought into the fact that knowing what your nutrient levels are, you can make better choices for your health.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:23:30]:
Absolutely. In these final minutes, any, any last minute thoughts, things that you think are important for the audience to know about Dr. Riordan or the direction that you are seeing the Riordan Clinic heading, what are you most excited about? That’s what I’ll. That’s what I’ll. Leave it, leave it with. What are you most excited about in the next. With what we have going on right now and what’s to come in the next few years. What excites you the most?

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:23:54]:
Well, I really think the biggest thing. And you and I have been talking about this. Before the pandemic hit, we always had a luncheon lecture, and more often than not, you know, I remember when Dr. Riordan came when I first started, he said, we’re going to share that job and we’ll have other people doing lectures. Well, he was out of town a lot, and so guess who got to do the luncheon lecture? Which, looking back on it, it was one of the best things because the. If you really want to learn something, you want to teach it. Teaching it really helps you get the bigger picture. The teacher always learns the most. Well, we’re very fortunate that we do have Dr. Aks coming on board who’s going to now provide us with. We found that we’re probably not going to be able to open the lunch, the, the, the, the cafeteria, the, the kitchen. But we want to make ourselves. And this, this, this, this philosophy of co learning, we want to make it available to as many people as possible. Well, now we have, we have the, all these amazing YouTube and we have. People can log in and be part of the conversation. You can see what’s going on, we can do it on a regular basis. We’re really trying to maintain contact with our pat we have in the past. And if we can do that in an educational format, not just kind of like stale education, but dynamic interaction where people can express their concerns and what’s going on with them and be part of the learning process, more of a dynamic co learning type of environment, I think that’ll be a great step forward. This podcast in my mind has helped establish that, but it’s a kind of a one way street where we would like it to make, make it more interactive in the future.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:25:44]:
Yeah. And I think you’ll agree that we’re looking at physical, you know, ailments, but we’re also looking at mental, emotional, spiritual ailments with patients as well. And so as you’re talking about that, the thing that is coming to mind for me is connection and collaboration and building community. Right. And how incredibly important that all of those things are to the healing journey.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:26:06]:
The three C’s. Yeah, the three C’s. That’s wonderful. No, I think that’ll be our. That’ll be a great new avenue for us to walk down and, and share what has been built, but make it more for everyone to take part in and to grow from. Because I feel like a lot of my personal health and personal growth has come about by just these simple philosophical pieces. And it’s really made my, my enjoyment of being a doctor better than I ever thought. Matter of fact, I’ve been both ways. I’ve been conventional. We got here and we started doing more of this. And as that has evolved, I’m saying, you know, this is really the doctor of the future is that can a doctor of the future that can not only have the best of left brain and the best of the holistic right brain, but be able to communicate both sides in a way that takes people to this higher level of co learning that to me will be the medicine of the future.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:27:10]:
Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk to me, Dr. Ron. I really, really appreciate the service that you’ve given to our patients over the past 35 years and the knowledge that you’ve shared with us today.

Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:27:20]:
And Michelle, I’m happy for you to be the leader of this new generation, this third generation of the Riordan Clinic. So thank you for your service as well.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:27:28]:
Absolutely. Thank you.

Riordan Clinic [00:27:31]:
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