What Is Integrative Oncology? The Riordan Clinic Approach

Riordan Clinic [00:00:00]:
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Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:00:50]:
Hi and welcome to the Real Health Podcast. Welcome to another edition of the Real Health Podcast. I’m Dr. Michelle Niesley, and today we’re going to be speaking with one of Riordan’s providers, Dr. Stacy Dunn, about integrative oncology. So for many years, the Riordan Clinic has focused on patients with complex chronic illness, uh, and over the last several years, we’ve really shifted our focus to not only welcoming those patients with complex chronic illness but also who are undergoing cancer treatment. Uh, who maybe have completed cancer treatment and are into survivorship. And so I thought I’d take a moment to talk with Dr. Stacy Dunn about all things integrative oncology. So welcome, Dr. Dunn, to the podcast.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:01:36]:
Well, thank you for having me.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:01:38]:
Absolutely. I’m wondering just briefly if you can tell the audience just a little bit about your background as a reminder.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:01:44]:
Oh, sure. So I’m a, a, uh, naturopathic physician and an acupuncturist. I’ve been in practice for, over 20 years and have specialized in integrative oncology for the, the majority of that time. I’ve worked in, in cancer hospitals and in private practice, and I shared a practice with you in Eugene, Oregon before coming to, before joining Riordan, in Overland Park.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:02:11]:
So. Fabulous. You know, when I speak with oncologists who maybe are unfamiliar with what integrative oncology is, the assumption is sometimes made that it’s alternative treatment. So I’m wondering if you can speak to a little bit about what integrative oncology means to you.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:02:31]:
I mean, I think that, that, I think it is integrated and that’s the goal. We want to work alongside conventional providers. I think patients feel better. I think outcomes are better when we all work together. And I think it puts a lot of strain on patients to have to try to hide what they’re doing. Plus it can be unsafe, you know, if they’re not being forthcoming with all the modalities, with all of their providers, then some of those things can interfere. I mean, it is a risk. And so I think we want to work together as a team with all of their providers to achieve best outcomes and to have patients feel as best as they can throughout the entire treatment.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:03:17]:
Absolutely. I believe that, like you said, the patients that we’re seeing really do benefit from utilizing integrative therapies along with our conventional care. And then obviously into survivorship when that conventional care stops, or maybe it’s not more simple, but maybe it’s something like an aromatase inhibitor, tamoxifen, some sort of hormonal blockade. It’s really nice for us to be able to work with them into survivorship as well.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:03:46]:
I agree, and it gives them something to— to patients something to actively work on, right? Because just because you’ve taken the tumor out and you’ve done the, you know, the radiation or the surgery or whatever treatments were indicated, you know, the underlying terrain, the underlying, you know, maybe inflammatory pathways or the underlying blood sugar imbalances or some of the things that may have contributed, you know, for the, you know, for the cancer to be able to grow in the first place, it still needs to be addressed. So those factors are still there. And so it is, you know, I think so helpful even in survivorship to seek out integrative care.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:04:27]:
Right. And so with the Riordan approach, you know, that is one of the things that we want to look at is the terrain. You talked about the terrain, which I think is so incredibly important. So can you discuss a little bit— sometimes patients can have the same diagnosis, they’re getting the same conventional treatment, but based on their terrain testing, they might have very different plans from us from an integrative perspective. So I’m wondering if you can speak a little to that.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:04:51]:
100%. And I mean, I think that that is, you know, one of the many things that makes the Riordan Approach so unique is all of the testing that we do because you don’t know unless you test, right? People hear about cancer and they think, “Oh, I’ve got so much inflammation, you know, cancer is inflammation,” and that’s not necessarily the case. Oftentimes we test these inflammatory markers, systemic inflammatory markers, and they’re negative or they’re really low. And so, you know, you have to look. So maybe there’s, you know, like I mentioned earlier, blood sugar issues. Maybe. And we look at a number of markers of blood sugar regulation because it’s not just— even hemoglobin A1C can be deceiving. You have to look at fasting insulin. You have to look at other markers and markers of angiogenesis, markers of immune function. All of these play a role in cancer development and in preventing recurrence down the road. And you don’t know. And like you said, you can have two patients with the exact same diagnosis sitting in front of you and they will get very different treatment plans because the terrain is different. They’re, they’re underlying, you know, what, what led to this was, was different, right?

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:06:03]:
And we also do, as you’re alluding to, some additional testing to look for toxic burden, for mycotoxins, for heavy metals potentially. And sometimes it’s a lot of testing, and often a lot of those tests end up being negative, right? So we end up doing those tests to kind of rule out what is the elephant in the room so that we can actually identify like, hey, we don’t have to pay attention to these things, but here are 3 things we really need to focus on, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:06:29]:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:06:30]:
Yeah.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:06:30]:
No, and you don’t know unless you test it. So it does. Yeah. And I haven’t had— we do a lot of upfront testing, a very extensive test with a new patient, but I’ve never had a patient after reviewing their initial lab say, wow, I wish I hadn’t done that, or that was a waste of time. Like, they’re always so— it’s So interesting to see all of the panels and how it plays into maybe other comorbidities that they have or other issues that they’ve had with their health. And so everyone has always been really excited to review those labs. I’ve never had anyone say, like, oh, gosh, I wish I hadn’t. Sure. It’s really helpful information. I wish everyone could do it. Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:07:17]:
And it’s really empowering. And like you were just alluding to also, someone could have high blood pressure, they could have migraine headaches, they could have other conditions that have given them trouble for a very, very long time. And so in the process of us trying to uncover these issues that may have contributed in some way to the development of the cancer, these other conditions are not, like you were talking inflammation or heavy metals, or it’s not only cancer that these things impact, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:07:44]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:07:46]:
You’re right. So a broad range, a broad range. So I mean, hopefully, I mean, my goal, and I’m sure yours as well, is that they come out of the cancer process, cancer treatment process on the other side, hopefully probably even healthier than they were. Yes.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:07:58]:
And we do hear that all the time. Even some of the people, you know, some patients that are, you know, may even have a later stage disease that, you know, it is treated as more of kind of a chronic condition, but we’re years out from the diagnosis and they feel healthier than they ever have, even though they have cancer and even maybe a late stage cancer, but they still feel healthier than they have, you know, throughout their lives.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:08:24]:
Yeah, for sure. Very good. Um, one of the things that I know as integrative— so I’m a naturopathic physician as well. Both of us are fellows of the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology. We’ve been doing this for decades. I think this is my 25th year in practice, and this is your what year in practice? Yeah, so I mean, between us, we have almost 50, almost 50 years in practice. Um, and one of the things that I’ve seen time and time again, and I’m sure you have as well, is that a lot of patients are coming to us potentially these high-level interventions, supplements, IVs, other things that can be incredibly helpful. And then we talk to them about the basic foundations of their sleep and their diet and their exercise, and we find some issues there. So I’m wondering if you can speak to kind of the, the path that you like to take to ensure that these higher-level interventions are going to be as effective as they can be.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:09:21]:
Absolutely. I mean, you, you can’t out-supplement a bad diet. We— I mean, or you can’t out-supplement lack sleep and too much stress and all of those things. So those foundational pieces are crucial. I think those things that we do day in, day out have the biggest impact on our health. And so that foundation has to be there to even be able to build on, you know, with these therapies. I think these therapies are incredible and can be really beneficial and very therapeutic. But if you don’t have the foundation, then there’s not much to build on. And you’re right, because I think that’s the way we’ve been raised in our kind of our current medical framework is like, you have something wrong, you take this pill. And so people think, I’m going to take a natural pill, I have something wrong, I’m going to take it. And that’s what natural medicine is. And it isn’t that. I mean, it really is looking at the whole person, their patterns and their habits and diet is Exercise is so important. Sleep is so important. Stress reduction. Those things are crucial. So it is something that I, that I discuss with, with all of my patients.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:10:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. Very good. And I know that we meet our patients, our co-learners, where they’re at, right? So sometimes we can have, you know, co-learners who appear and they’ve done a lot of dietary work and some that are still eating fast food and drinking soda every day, right? So it’s challenging sometimes to meet— It can be.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:10:54]:
I agree with that. I mean, I don’t think, you know, you have to do the exact perfect diet all the time. Right. You know, I think that there is some leeway there.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:11:02]:
Yeah.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:11:03]:
And I agree with meeting someone where they’re at. I mean, it is their choice still, ultimately. Of course. I can give them the information, but if that’s not what, you know, they’re ready for, then I still work with patients and see what we can shift and change. But ultimately, yeah, it’s still diet is going to be important.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:11:20]:
Yeah. Do you have a favorite— talking about diet and sleep and stress management, do you have a, like, from a diet perspective? Forever mine has been like, eat one meal every day that has 5 different colors. Gravy is not a color. Sauce is not a color. Ketchup is not a color, right? Um, so I’m wondering, from some of those foundational things, is there a key piece of, um, you know, a key recommendation that you make to co-learners on a regular basis that just really seems to be something that they can grab onto and put to practice?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:11:54]:
Yeah, I mean, I really recommend more of a whole foods, kind of lower grain Mediterranean diet. So lots of veggies and fruits and more whole foods. But I think you’re better at coming up with some of those visuals than I am. I love the colors and the— yeah, the no gravy.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:12:19]:
Right.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:12:20]:
Gravy is not a color.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:12:21]:
Gravy and ketchup are not colors. They are not. No. Very good.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:12:26]:
I mean, I think diet-wise, I mean, I also am not like— like I said, it’s not for me. It’s not like black and white. Like, I feel like I want people to eat well most of the time, like, you know, day, you know, like most of the time. But if you have an occasional whatever, it’s not going to make or break it from my perspective. I just don’t— I don’t think it needs to be like 100% or else, you know, something shifts for you and your diagnosis. I just don’t think that’s true.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:12:55]:
So I’m going to lean into a little bit some of the fact versus fiction right now, or at least what you’re practicing in your practice with regards to diet. So, you know, when I see new patients, often you hear ketogenic diet is the only way to go, which plays into some of the terrain medicine. And then on the other spectrum, you can hear vegan is the only way to go. And I’m with you also on the kind of lower carb Mediterranean, but I’m wondering if you can kind or talk about how we have landed in the place that we are at at the Riordan Clinic.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:13:26]:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think those diets— there are some good takeaways from all of those diets. I think if we go too far in one direction, then we usually end up with some nutritional deficiencies, you know? And so, you know, I think there is a place for keto and I love vegan diets that are like super high in all the fresh veggies and, you know, like that I love. And if that gets somebody eating more vegetables or thinking about more vegetables and how to prepare them in different ways or broadening the type of vegetables they’re eating, I’m all for that. Vegan diets can be, though, generally more grain-heavy. And you may, depending on the person— and again, that’s why we do all the testing— but, you know, a lot of people can’t handle that much. Their blood sugar would be dysregulated with the many carbohydrates. And so I, if somebody’s open to eating more protein, even animal protein, healthier sources of animal protein, then you do see it, it stabilize blood sugar and, and it does help a number of those markers that we follow.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:14:37]:
Yeah, absolutely. And to take that a step further, I think that both of us have experienced when patients are on active treatment like chemotherapy, if the vegan diet, if they aren’t really good about getting their protein, sometimes it takes longer for counts to recover, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:14:52]:
100%. Yeah, definitely. And just more weakness overall. I do see people that are— that have more protein in their diet with their undergoing treatment, they tend to feel better.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:15:03]:
Very good.

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Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:16:04]:
Um, so moving on from some of those foundational principles again to some of those higher-level interventions. You know, obviously the Riordan Clinic is known for high, high dose vitamin C. So I’m wondering if you can just speak a little bit to the benefits of high dose vitamin C and what you’ve experienced in your, in your patient population.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:16:25]:
Yeah. So I mean, most of the, the, the, you know, the, the research has been done more from an integrative perspective in helping people feel better. So more quality of life kind of studies. So people feel better. When they’re getting IV vitamin C alongside their conventional treatments. You know, there are some, some, you know, some studies that are, that are also looking at some of the anti-cancer activities of high-dose IV vitamin C as well. Sure. What we see in the clinic, I mean, you do see people do better. I think people feel better. They say they feel better. They can tell if they missed a week or if they missed their last treatment, they, You know, they want to come in because they generally feel better. Yeah. You know, when, when they’re receiving that alongside their treatment. And you know, as far as outcomes go, we see people do better. Granted, they’re doing so many of the other things, but they, they are outliving by years and years and years and years the prognosis that they were given. There are, you know, and, and their quality of life is so much better. So yeah, we see clinically much benefit from the, from the IV vitamin C.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:17:38]:
Yeah, and I wanna highlight something that you just said. I feel like at times we get asked as integrative providers, you know, as practicing integrative oncology, like, well, what’s the one thing that is most important? And I know I’ve spoken with Dr. Ron here at the Riordan Clinic, and Dr. Riordan used to say the most important nutrient is the one you’re deficient in, right? And so when we get asked by oncologists or other healthcare providers, like, what is the most important thing for breast cancer? What is the most important thing for colorectal cancer? Those recommendations are not as easy. I mean, high fiber diets in certain circumstances, Like there’s some basic guidelines, of course, but I think to be like, what is the silver bullet? What’s the one thing that you would do?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:18:17]:
Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:18:17]:
It’s not that easy.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:18:19]:
That’s not that easy. No. No. And that is why we do all the testing so we know, so we have a roadmap to follow. I mean, we know for that person specifically what needs to be done.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:18:29]:
Yeah. Which I think is just so different than following NCCN guidelines. You get people with a similar tumor type at a sort of similar stage, like we were talking about, they’re gonna get very similar chemotherapy, radiation. Whatever. Immunotherapy, checkpoint inhibitors, whatever it happens to be, right? Um, and for us, they may get really, really different treatment plans.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:18:48]:
Absolutely.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:18:49]:
Um, I’m wondering if you can speak a little bit— obviously nutritional dietary supplements are something that we recommend on a regular basis as well. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the quality of supplements, because that is a question that comes up. These are not FDA regulated. We hear a lot of different comments about supplements and the benefit or potential harm. So I’m wondering if you can just speak to the use of supplements when working in integrative oncology.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:19:17]:
Right. It is an issue because it, you know, it is an unregulated industry. And so you do not know what you’re getting. You know, just because the label says it has, you know, something in there doesn’t mean that it’s in there and it doesn’t mean that there aren’t other things in there that aren’t on the label.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:32]:
Right.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:19:32]:
And so the, you know, the products that we use and have always recommended, you know, are pharmaceutical grade. And so that means that they have third-party testing. So it’s not the company themselves that’s doing the testing, it’s an outside company testing the product for purity, for potency, for contaminants. And it is a huge issue. And I know you’ve seen this as well in practice, but you know, sometimes you put together this treatment plan and you are, you know, you’re working on one, let’s say it is inflammation and you put on, you know, the patient on something that you think seeing consistently reduce inflammation, and then they come back and their inflammatory markers haven’t moved. And you go through and they’re like, oh, no, I went to wherever, the convenience store and got this product because it was cheaper. Right. Which sounds great in theory. I know these products can be expensive.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:20:23]:
Yes.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:20:24]:
But really, it ends up wasting money because it’s not doing what you need it to do. Sure. Yeah. And so it is important that you you know, and I’m happy to give like, you know, it doesn’t have to be the product I have here, but there are, you know, specific products that you need to purchase to know that it’s a good quality. But that is why we carry supplements, because we know these are the ones that we’ve tested. We’ve seen them work. We know that, you know, and we know what to expect from them. And it can be frustrating and it feels like a waste of time and money for people to use, like, like, you know, the convenience store brands. Yeah. And supplements.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:21:07]:
Yeah, absolutely. And to take that a step further, also sometimes if someone has used that brand that maybe isn’t as effective and they’re like, oh, but I’ve tried that before, and then that for us clinically kind of, oh, so do we cross that off our list because they’ve tried this and it doesn’t work? Well, maybe the supplement that they were trying wasn’t of good quality, so maybe we try it again.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:21:30]:
Right, exactly. Yeah. And then the contaminant issue as well. I mean, it is a huge issue. Mold, heavy metals, like all kinds of not great things are found in some of these supplements that are not, not regulated and don’t have the third-party testing. And so you really do need to be cautious.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:21:46]:
Yeah, absolutely. And especially in patients. That reminds me— go ahead, please.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:21:51]:
Yes, about like buying on Amazon, because people sometimes see this, say, well, this is the exact same product, it has the same label as— but they’re there’s so much counterfeit on, you know, so many counterfeit products on Amazon right now that, you know, the companies are having a hard time keeping, keeping up with it. But yeah, um, but yeah, it’s the, the, you know, the, the label may look the same, but the capsules are a different color or a different shape, or, you know, it’s— yeah, yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:22:16]:
And to add to that, I know you know this story, but I was at a conference once actually talking to a vendor who makes both a professional product and a retail product because the question I also get, well, I’m buying it from that company’s store on Amazon, so it should be safe, right? And so they were a company that they were getting these, you know, I was talking to them and all of a sudden their phone starts blowing up. And so a patient had purchased something from their store and the label looked the same, but it was a slightly different color. And the patient was like, oh, I didn’t know you guys changed your color. And they were like, we haven’t. And so even those stores sometimes can be infiltrated by counterfeit products, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:22:54]:
Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:22:54]:
Yeah.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:22:55]:
So too bad.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:22:56]:
It is too bad. It is too bad. But I mean, we do want to make sure, like you said, if someone already has any kind of toxic burden inflammation, the last thing you want to do is be giving them something, A, that doesn’t work, and B, that potentially has contaminants, which could even make the situation worse, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:23:10]:
Right.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:23:10]:
Yeah. Okay. Um, so when you are speaking, the last couple questions here, I think that one of the questions, if there’s anyone watching who is a healthcare provider, right, um, uh, and working, because often what happens is that unless you have, uh, oncologist or a provider who’s referring directly to us, that we have established that relationship with. It actually becomes more of a teaching opportunity for us to contact physicians that maybe aren’t familiar with us, provide the evidence, because there actually are a lot of studies on integrative therapies, right? So that’s one of the things we also hear is there’s no research, and it’s like, there’s literally hundreds of thousands of articles. But it’s a full-time job for both you and I to keep up on it. And so that— I want to have you speak just a little to go with the first. Speak a little bit to the question that I’ve gotten at times, I’m sure you have too, well, if this is so good for me, why doesn’t my oncologist recommend it? If I should take this supplement with this type of chemo, why didn’t my oncologist tell me that?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:24:16]:
Sure. Well, I mean, that’s not their training. Like, I mean, they are, they are trained in a, you know, in specific modalities and a specific paradigm, like it’s, which is great. We need that. Like that is, you know, like, we need that. But they do not have the training in the vitamins and the supplements and the things that we do. And so that’s why it is ideal for us to work together. We do also have to ensure that what we recommend doesn’t interfere with what they’re doing, and we make sure to do that. But they just don’t have— it’s not that they You know, like they just don’t have that training.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:25:03]:
Right. Right. And I think that’s something that’s really important for patients to understand is that oncologists are seeing 10 to 15 patients a day, you know, at least, right? Going over all of the conventional, here’s your scan results, or you were gonna continue with this type of treatment. So they don’t have the time, ’cause again, it’s a full-time job for you and I to keep up on the integrative stuff.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:25:23]:
And think about all the new data.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:25:24]:
Right. And so it’s not a reasonable expectation that an oncologist is gonna be aware of all of this data as well. Right.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:25:30]:
Right. Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:25:32]:
So let’s say you see a patient, they’re working with an oncologist, you know, sometimes the patient gets stuck in the middle of, my integrative doc wants me to do this and the oncologist is like, don’t do any of that ’cause it could potentially interfere. And so I’m just wondering kind of what your thoughts are and how you advise that patient to navigate that situation ’cause it’s tricky.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:25:54]:
Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, I think I always encourage patients to be transparent with their oncologist And I’m happy to talk to the oncologist. I’m happy to share articles and my chart notes, all the things. I’m happy to collaborate with them to see if there is some common ground we can find.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:26:16]:
Yes.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:26:17]:
I think it’s ultimately up to the patient. And so if it makes them uncomfortable to do the things that the oncologist does not want them to do, then I say don’t do it. Wait until treatment is over. We’ll meet up again at that time. I don’t want somebody to feel like they could potentially be doing something that would reduce the efficacy of their treatment. I just don’t want someone to feel that way. At the same time, we’ve treated thousands and thousands of patients, and so I know that I won’t interfere and I know it will help. But if they don’t feel that confidence, then I’m okay with them. It’s their decisions, their bodies, their health, whatever they want to I do, I’ll support them.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:27:06]:
Yeah.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:27:07]:
Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:27:08]:
And the— I mean, we can always work harder on nutrition. There’s other of those foundational things that we can always focus on.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:27:14]:
Absolutely. Supplements.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:27:15]:
Yeah. And then I’m going to ask you the opposite question. When the patients are maybe caught in the middle a little bit, I’ve actually had patients— I see pediatrics as well, and I’ve had phone calls from, you know, parents who have children checked into the ICU and are like, can I add this while they’re in the ICU? And I’m like, not right now, right? Um, and so I’m actually wondering how you navigate that conversation with patients a little bit, not necessarily when somebody in the ICU, but there’s times I feel that people come in because they don’t understand or aren’t aware— not even don’t understand, but aren’t aware of that individualized approach and how beneficial it can be. Again, taking patients with the same diagnosis and really looking at their labs and figuring out what makes this person different from that person. Sometimes you’ll have a patient with a diagnosis of breast cancer, colorectal cancer, whatever it is, and they’ve gotten a list of the top 20 things and they’re taking those top 20 things, right? So how do you navigate conversation with that, with that patient?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:28:12]:
Yeah, I mean, I think I’m not— again, you know, we do a lot of labs, so I know really what is most important for this patient. So just because these 20 items— there are a lot of herbs and supplements that have some anti-cancer activity. That doesn’t mean we should all take all of them all the time. You know, I mean, it’s just not. And so it’s a matter of determining what they need. And determining what would be most beneficial given what treatment they’re on.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:28:41]:
Yes.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:28:42]:
And what, what won’t interfere because there, there probably are things on that list that would not play nicely with whatever their treatment is. So, correct. So looking for, you know, from a lens of safety, efficacy, and then just, and then also what is it that would, yeah, would be most effective for that.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:29:00]:
Wonderful. Yeah. And I want to back up what you said as well about non— it’s called nondisclosure, but You know, it’s, it’s, studies have shown that anywhere between 40 to 80% of patients who are undergoing cancer treatment are taking something that they’re not telling their oncologist about. And you and I both know that, you know, for example, there’s certain supplements that can cause an increase in liver enzymes, right? Well, if the oncologist doesn’t know the patient is on that supplement, they may think, oh, it’s because of the chemo, and they may need to dose reduce the chemo. They may need, think that we need to change treatments. When maybe it was actually that natural product that was causing that in the first place, right?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:29:37]:
Exactly.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:29:38]:
Yeah. And that, yeah, compromises the patient’s best possible outcome if we have to dose reduce or change treatments too quickly. So, very good.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:29:48]:
Okay.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:29:49]:
Yeah. In these last few minutes, so you are located in Overland Park, Kansas, right? And so you have several therapies that we offer, everything from, you know, IV vitamin C to other immuno, you know, immune stimulating therapies. Therapies as well. Um, you’ve been with the Riordan Clinic for almost 2 years now? Almost 3? Okay, almost 3 years now, my mistake. Um, so in closing, I’m just wondering if you can say a little bit about why integrative oncology plays such a role at the Riordan Clinic, or how you, how you really feel integrative oncology benefits patients, and if they were to make an appointment with you, just what is it that they expect? What are the benefits that they could expect if they were to book an appointment with you?

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:30:41]:
Well, I mean, I think it is that individualized approach. I mean, we have, we have a lot of tools at our disposal as well, um, and we are the, the clinic that really, you know, launched IV vitamin C. And so while there are, you know, more and more, you know, kind of, um, IV clinics popping up, you know, throughout, um, most cities, yeah, um, we, you know, we are the ones that did the The most of the initial study. And so I think the way we do IVC, how we test it, the type of IV vitamin C we use, it really is different than what you would get down the street at the IV clinic. I also think that testing is foundational, and I don’t know how you can decide what you need to do and what you need to take without that testing. I really just don’t. I just think our experience between, you know, Dr. Kirsten West is another integrative oncology provider here as well. And we both just have extensive experience in integrative oncology. And it’s different than going to see, you know, a health coach or even a natural medicine provider that, you know, dabbles a little bit in oncology. It’s different. You really do need to know the different types of cancer. You need to understand, you know, the different types of cancer. You need to understand the conventional treatments, you know, and you need to understand how all of that plays with what we do. And so I think that, that may, you know, that really sets, sets us apart. Yeah.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:32:26]:
Very good. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.

Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:32:33]:
Appreciate it.

Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:32:35]:
Thank you.

Riordan Clinic [00:32:38]:
Thank you for listening to the Real Health Podcast. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episodes and show notes over at realhealthpodcast.org. Also, be sure to visit riordanclinic.org where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of real health.