In this episode of The Real Health Podcast, Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD welcomes Dr. Dan Rubin, ND, FABNO, a pioneer in naturopathic oncology and co-founder of the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology. Together, they dive into the importance of integrative oncology, the role of dendritic cell therapy, and how blending conventional and naturopathic approaches can empower cancer patients. Dr. Rubin shares insights into the “resilience model” of cancer care, immune system optimization, and the critical role of personalized medicine in improving outcomes and quality of life.
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Links
Dr. Dan Rubin, ND FABNO: https://listenandcare.com/dan-rubin-nd-fabno/
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD: https://riordanclinic.org/staff/ron-hunninghake-md/
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Read the Transcript
00:00:02:20 – 00:00:16:23
Narrator
This is the Real Health podcast brought to you by Riordan Clinic. Our mission is to bring you the latest information and top experts in functional and integrative medicine to help you make informed decisions on your path to real health.
00:00:17:00 – 00:00:38:06
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Well welcome everyone. This is Doctor Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD and I’m here. We’re hosting another episode of the Real Health podcast here at Riordan Clinic, and it’s our great fortune today to have Doctor Dan Rubin online. And I’ve got some really interesting stuff to go over with Dan because he’s a special guy. So Dan, welcome to our program.
00:00:38:08 – 00:00:39:07
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
So,
00:00:39:09 – 00:01:06:24
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
So doc, Doctor Dan Rubin is a naturopathy doctor who was instrumental. Matter of fact, he was the pioneer in starting the the American Board of Naturopathy, oncology, naturopathy oncologists. So, Dan, I know this is going to be kind of new for our audience. Some of them may have never even heard of this, of this thing called FABNO fellows of the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology.
00:01:07:01 – 00:01:36:04
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Yes. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your role in this kind of where I know has a natural path, you know, there’s a natural path school process. Then what happened? Because and maybe what happened to you that that kind of inspired you to go in this direction? And what is the importance of this to, our fellow, our fellow Americans and people around the world who are dealing with the rising tide of cancer in the world?
00:01:36:06 – 00:02:13:14
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
It certainly is rising. And, you know, your clinic, the Riordan Clinic, helped me get my start. I was out there in 1997 or 1998, and I certainly remember being there and learning IV, vitamin C and meeting Doctor Riordan and Neil Riordan and you and it. It was just it was amazing. That was the late 90s. Well, if you fast forward to the early 2000s, when I found myself in private practice and was thinking, okay, well, you know, I’m really focused in oncology.
00:02:13:14 – 00:02:36:18
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
In fact, I’m specialized. I don’t do anything else but being in the state of Arizona and practicing there, I was unable to call myself a specialist because the state board, prohibited that unless you had some type of oversight by the board or some type of recognition, rather by the board. So we thought, well, we really need to form a board specialty.
00:02:36:21 – 00:03:05:16
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
So we conjured in, 2003, we conjured the idea of the oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, the ONC, ANP. And in 2004, we got to be an affiliate organization of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. And, we were off and running and we held some tumor boards. And, by the next year, we had developed the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology.
00:03:05:18 – 00:03:29:21
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
I was able to preside over the, the whole institution for the first five years. The, the actual board certification arm of that is the AB no, which is why I have Fabiano after my name or Fabiano. And that, that is the, an offshoot of the R K and P, I was the VP of that. Tim Birdsall became the president of that.
00:03:29:21 – 00:03:52:05
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
But it all started with our PE in 2004 when we announced it to our profession and we had our initial meeting, I remember it well, it was in Seattle, Washington, and some people complained that our requirements to become board certified were too stringent. And, I never agreed with that. I thought the more stringent, the better.
00:03:52:05 – 00:04:13:00
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
We’re making specialists here. We’re not just having family doctors who dabble in oncology. And why did we start this? This was about protecting the public. That was it because of the rising tide of cancer. And you’re looking at, you know, the early 2000s and people were starting to consume more naturopathic and integrative oncology. So how do you protect the public?
00:04:13:02 – 00:04:41:17
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
How do you how do you show a difference between the person who’s absolutely skilled and the person who’s dabbling in it? Well, you form a specialty organization. And then, it took us nine years, but by the, 2013, we got, over, we got, recognized by the Arizona Naturopathic medical board, and we were allowed to call ourselves, naturopathic, or, naturopathic oncology specialists or naturopathic oncologist in this state.
00:04:41:19 – 00:05:04:20
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Early on in the process, the American Association of Nature Physicians gave one of our board members a seat at the House of delegates and then recognized in an official national position paper that Fabiano, which we had already we had already created, a Fabiano and there was already six fab nos by 2006. Right. It took us an extra three years to get it recognized in Arizona.
00:05:05:01 – 00:05:22:23
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
But by 2006, we had the first six board certified naturopathic oncologists in the profession. The, our national association recognized that. And in the position paper recognized Fabiano is the highest, stature in, naturopathic medicine for oncology. That’s how it began.
00:05:23:00 – 00:05:23:24
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Yeah.
00:05:24:01 – 00:05:25:05
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
It was to protect the public.
00:05:25:05 – 00:05:41:21
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Protect the public. And what does Fabiano bring to the public. What if a if someone saying why should I go see a Fabiano specialist. What what how does that interface with an oncologist in the in the conventional sense.
00:05:41:23 – 00:06:10:08
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Got it. Fabiano brings expertise. It is a true board certification with the inside of our profession. And we have stringent enough, requirements in order to become board certified, including taking a board certification exam and having a certain amount of experience as well as a re certification process. Actually, mine just took place at the end of last year, of all things.
00:06:10:10 – 00:06:36:24
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
So these are these are physicians who are naturopathic physicians who have gone on to become naturopathic oncologists, similar to a family physician then becoming a medical oncologist, you know, an MD or D.O. who wants to, I consider naturopathic oncology a subspecialty. I consider all physicians, whether it be MD Deo Chiropractic, naturopathic, other types of physicians. We’re all physicians.
00:06:37:01 – 00:07:25:19
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
We all went to school. We’re all licensed from that. You specialize? I’m a naturopathic physician, so I’m a specialist in naturopathic medicine, but I’m a physician first. I’m a sub specialist in naturopathic oncology. So it’s a true focused subspecialty. And with that, the hope is that these doctors who have FAP know are very astute and up to date and understanding the fast moving and fast paced, practice of medicine, which is called oncology because like you said, it was not only a rising tide of diagnostics, but of treatments as well, which was one of the big motivations in the early 2000s to develop the board certification was because there was so much to know and
00:07:25:19 – 00:07:46:18
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
then so many indications to like, should we take this, you know, is this upcoming okay, what was okay back then? No, it’s not okay because we started, understanding cancer pathways more so that there was a rising tide of different treatments like small molecules were coming out. Now we have the advent of immunotherapies, and now we have, you know, such precision diagnostics and personalized oncology.
00:07:46:18 – 00:08:11:00
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
So that was really what a fab no is bringing more. So it’s being able to speak the language and the principles and practice of oncology where naturopathic doctor first, your naturopathic oncologist second. So you need to be able to communicate within the greater context. And the greater village of the oncology world, if you can’t, it’s very difficult to integrate.
00:08:11:00 – 00:08:14:13
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And most patients today are looking for integrative medicine.
00:08:14:19 – 00:08:48:18
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
I think that’s the key word integration, because I know when I’ve been at the river and clinic, now 34th going on 35 years, and Doctor Reardon did all the ground breaking work, which you were a part of, in terms of understanding how IV vitamin C could play a, a pivotal role in helping cancer patients. But as a family physician, after Doctor Reardon died and people started coming to the Reardon clinic, I could only tell people that as a family physician, we had IV vitamin C as an alternative.
00:08:48:18 – 00:09:10:07
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
And this is where the the term alternative medicine came in. But when it when it came to help them, asking me to help them to interpret what they were getting from their oncologist and to actually integrate it with the IV vitamin C, I was I was weak, I, I did the best I could, but I did not have the background in oncology.
00:09:10:11 – 00:09:42:23
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Most doctors, as soon as the word cancer is mentioned, boom. Off to the oncologist. They’re afraid to even touch it, let alone really try to understand what the patient is going through and what else could be done that would facilitate a more holistic, healthy approach. This sounds weird when when you say we want a healthy approach to cancer, but in many ways, cancer, in the, in the conventional sense is just treating the tumor or treating the, the specific disease.
00:09:42:23 – 00:10:21:06
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
And, and when we start adding the word integrative, not only do you treat the disease, but you also have this broad based understanding of nutrition and the immune system and, natural, therapies, herbal therapies, dietary factors. And to be able to weave that in, in a, in a very conscious way and a very well researched, documented way, that’s a big plus for the cancer patients out there that are looking for the best of everything they can to help them win the war on their own cancer.
00:10:21:08 – 00:10:49:05
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
I agree, and I think what’s also very important is making sure that your, the person who is taking care of you, at least in that context, especially from a high level integrated way, is a physician level, because we also have a rising tide of non physician practitioners and, there’s a lot of so-called experts, if you will, and on social media, and it’s my warning now just for people to be careful, you should always have a naturopathic doctor and if you can, a naturopathic oncologist on your case.
00:10:49:05 – 00:11:04:02
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And it’s fine if you want to be on social media and you want to listen to some of the hipsters, there are some people with very good information, but you should really discuss it with a physician level practitioner to help you weed through, because some of these things may be good, but not good for you.
00:11:04:04 – 00:11:18:22
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
What does nature naturopathic, you’re training in natural naturopathy medicine. What does it bring to the oncology experience that people are going through as they’re trying to deal with their, their cancer’s.
00:11:18:24 – 00:11:46:17
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Such a great question. Thank you for that. It brings the philosophy naturopathic doctors are unlike any other physicians or practitioners out there, and no other physicians or practitioners are like naturopathic physicians. We we are our own entity. That doesn’t mean that we can’t all meet in the middle and integrate or meet on one side or the other side, but it’s the philosophy of the approach to the person from day one.
00:11:46:17 – 00:12:11:01
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
In naturopathic medical school, we start off with classes in the philosophy of naturopathic medicine and how you view the body. And so you brought up a notion before that. Generally oncology is treatment of the tumor, which in some cases could be the symptom of the cancer, if you will, depending on how broadly we define the cancer. And so in naturopathic medicine, we certainly want to treat the symptoms.
00:12:11:01 – 00:12:32:02
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And we want to see how much we can get to the cause. Cause is one of the precepts of nature ethic medicine. It’s called totally cause them treat the course, treat the whole person. The healing power of nature. Doctors, teacher first do no harm. These are the precepts that line our hallways in our schools and flags that are hanging.
00:12:32:04 – 00:13:18:19
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
They don our textbooks and they are repeated over and over in the early years. And again in the later years. And of course, during practice, it’s something that we grow up with as naturopathic physicians. The cause, however, sometimes in naturopathic oncology, even if you treat the cause, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the symptom goes away. Certain cells are clones of cells, and if, let’s say, stress for some reason, magnitude of stress, whether it be occupational, financial, familial, physical, electro, geo physiological, different types of stress, if you change your job, get out of a bad relationship, fix relationships with your kids, per se.
00:13:18:21 – 00:13:42:19
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Move to a different longitude and latitude and go off grid. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the tumor that was caused from that multitude of stressors is now going to go away. It certainly helps. So treating the cause helps matter, but it doesn’t necessarily create a cure so that there’s a differentiation in that because it’s different than a skin rash.
00:13:42:21 – 00:13:57:18
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Yeah. Right. We know that sometimes in kids ear infections may be caused by a sensitivity to dairy. You take away the dairy it gets better. It’s not necessary the case when somebody has an established clone of cells in their body.
00:13:57:20 – 00:14:23:15
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Yeah. You know, one of the big areas in conventional oncology is, immune therapies. And what’s interesting that when you start thinking about the immune system and it is a specialized way that, certain treatments are used to stimulate the immune system, but the immune system is something that we all need to be worried about, not worried about, but taking care of.
00:14:23:20 – 00:14:43:16
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Yeah. In order to be just healthy. But it especially becomes, a factor in a cancer situation. And when you say, okay, well, how do you improve the immune system? This to me is kind of like the essence of one of the essences of naturopathy in medicine. That’s that’s a fundamental part of the healing system of the body.
00:14:43:18 – 00:15:17:18
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
And if you can strengthen the immune system using diet, using exercise, getting the right kinds of sleep, all these things that we, we, assume that we know, but maybe we don’t know enough about it when it comes to dealing with the situation of cancer. And so I’m asking, how have you brought this dimension? Into your practice as a, as a naturalpathic oncologist, how do you help patients, focus on their immune system and what they can do to make it better?
00:15:17:20 – 00:15:48:17
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
I don’t know that you realize that. You just asked a gigantic question. So I’m going to I’m going to sit back and I am going to answer this, in a lovely way, because this is exactly what I’m engaged in right now. Yeah. You know me from 20, almost 30 years ago, doctor, right? Yeah. And you know that, Neil Reardon and I had, founded Aiden Clinic together, which was absolutely based on immunotherapy.
00:15:48:18 – 00:16:10:08
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Right. And technologies that you and Neil and Neil’s father, Doctor Hugh, had founded and, worked on at the center during the Rick back project back in the 90s. It was purely I think it was 89 to 99 that you guys had that project. That’s exactly one of those one of those, one of those projects was a dendritic cell therapy.
00:16:10:10 – 00:16:39:17
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Dendritic cell therapy has been used for over 30 years. And we had a clinic in cancer treatment center in clinic, whatever you want to call it. We were using dendritic cell therapies. That was in the early, late 90s, early 2000s. Well, the immune system is your first and your last defense against cancer. And it’s important it’s also important to know that, as Candace, as Candace Pert said, your immune system can hear everything that you think, right?
00:16:39:18 – 00:17:04:04
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
It is indeed your only mobile true nucleated tissue. It communicates with all other tissues directly, not just by soluble mediators that are thrust into the blood and floating around, but a cell, a white blood cell can go into another tissue and talk to it, communicate with it. So it’s important that they have the right messages that they are delivering the dendritic cell pathway to dendritic cells.
00:17:04:04 – 00:17:28:21
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Truly the general of the immune system. It is the thing that needs to educate the rest of the immune system. So if a tumor grows in the body, it cancer grows in the body even one or of course multiple. There is a downregulation or some type of failure of the true bio physiological immune response. Right. It didn’t work the way that it was supposed to.
00:17:29:01 – 00:17:58:15
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Period. So how do you fix that? Well, by doing this integrative medicine, by reducing neural inflammation, by looking at markers in the blood and trying to optimize the person’s bio physiology, changing their diet, getting them exercising like you said, getting them sleeping, improving the, circulatory flow, improving their electrical, their electrical flow. And in fact, this is part of what I call the resilience model of cancer care.
00:17:58:17 – 00:18:31:08
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
The resilience model of cancer care is a 16 step way to help improve your resilience. And part of that relates to the immune system. But you asked about how do we really deal with the immune system. Well, you see, nowadays in conventional oncology, immunotherapy is incredibly popularized. Sometimes I think to a fault in that there is a reliance on these immunotherapies, even though quite often they don’t work, and they don’t work because some of the markers that are required for these, what are called checkpoint inhibitors, are just simply not there.
00:18:31:08 – 00:19:04:16
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Sometimes you get lucky, but sometimes, it just doesn’t work. And these checkpoint inhibitors are essentially relieving the body or relieving the T-cells stress. So that they can go and attack the cancer cells. There’s also things like Car-T cell or certain bispecific antibodies. Bispecific antibodies are a new class of drugs which actually have two mechanisms of action. They use one part of their molecule to grab on, like Velcro to a cancer cell.
00:19:04:16 – 00:19:28:00
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And the other part their molecule like Velcro, to grab onto the T cell. And essentially this molecule approximates the T cell, which is the immune cell and the cancer cell and says, look here, look what we have. Why? Because the T cell was not recognizing the cancer cell. Why wasn’t it because the dendritic cell didn’t function properly? To be able to go educate the T cell on what to do.
00:19:28:02 – 00:19:49:11
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
What does this all mean? It’s the same thing with those checkpoint inhibitors. You can relieve the stress that cancer cells put on T cells via these checkpoint inhibitors. For those of you out there who are familiar with something called one. But if the T cell isn’t educated on what it’s really supposed to do, they’re just not going to work as well overall.
00:19:49:13 – 00:20:15:07
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
So that’s where dendritic cells come in. Dendritic cells seek out tumors. They grab tumors. They eat them. They eat cancer cells. They they derive information about those cancers very important immunologically relevant information. And then they literally go give a PowerPoint presentation to the T cells. And the T cells go, oh, these are the things that I’m supposed to look for.
00:20:15:07 – 00:20:38:01
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Oh there’s one there, there’s one there. And all of a sudden you have a great immune attack because these T cells form an army specifically designed around the information delivered by the dendritic cell. So how do you do dendritic cell therapy? Well, I’ve actually recently come on board a clinic. It’s called immuno seen immuno scenes in Cancun.
00:20:38:07 – 00:21:09:06
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
It’s all US based technology. In fact, immuno seen has a US venture where they’re doing clinical trials, quite amazing fast track clinical trials here in the United States. But in Cancun, people with solid tumors have access to this true dendritic cell therapy. It’s very, very different than any other dendritic cell of the past. Why? Because in the past, all other treatment centers were what’s called single loading dendritic cells.
00:21:09:08 – 00:21:33:01
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
They were taking information from the cancer cell, and they were only loading it into one little area of the of the dendritic cell. That’s not how regular biology works. Regular biology dictates that the dendritic cell must receive information in two different places. Once called MHC class one, the other is called MHC class two. We know that’s how biology works.
00:21:33:03 – 00:21:59:07
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Once that information is loaded into the dendritic cell in the two locations, the dendritic cell goes through highly significant changes and is highly available to now very much educate. This is this is a very attuned professor now that you then put back in the body. So in order to do dendritic cell therapy, you need a piece of the tumor because you need something to educate the dendritic cells on.
00:21:59:10 – 00:22:24:24
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And then you need the person cells. It’s a piece of the tumor from the person’s body. So you need a new biopsy. And then you need, lots and lots of white blood cells. And those white blood cells and the tumor are co-mingled in a lab, and they get converted into dendritic cells. And these cells are then, put back in the body, with an interventional radiologist, under ultrasound guidance.
00:22:24:24 – 00:22:57:07
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And these cells are placed in right next to nearby lymph nodes. And then you let the immune system do what it was designed to do, by whatever way you think it was designed. That’s how it works in Immunocine seen are the, they’re the ones, Doctor Helper and his crew over at, Baylor College of Medicine about 12 years ago were the ones who discovered this, double loading and brought it to clinical medicine.
00:22:57:09 – 00:23:20:23
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Doctor Matt Halpert, is the one who brought forth the US venture and put together immuno seen. And I’m I’m just proud to be a part of this. I am, director of integrative oncology and director director of integrative oncology development. So we are doing amazing things with the immune system, highly, highly evolved immunotherapy that gets back to our very previous talk routes.
00:23:21:00 – 00:23:57:11
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
We now have the technology to follow true biology. Imagine that. And, I’m just so happy to be part of this because it truly is my first love. And it’s our first and last defense. That’s why you asked a very big question. Yeah, we can do it at the levels of I mean, even even neuropsychological therapy that may reduce neuro, inflammation in the brain can help attune the immune system and have it pay more attention to, the cancer all the way up to this, technological, you know, immune therapy development in the clinic.
00:23:57:13 – 00:23:59:11
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
There’s a spectrum.
00:23:59:13 – 00:24:45:14
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
What comes to my mind is the word orchestration, in the sense that a cancer patient is trying to figure out what the heck do I do? And there are. So, as you mentioned, there are so many all kinds of alternative nutritional, and medical things, that they have to try to decipher if they can have someone who specializes not only in the, the specialty, treatment of cancer cells, but also in helping the body to, uplift itself, helping the immune system get stronger, helping detoxification pathways to work better, the diet to be more appropriate for the type of cancer they have.
00:24:45:14 – 00:25:11:23
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
All this takes? Yes, orchestration. And if you have someone that just knows the technicality of, and not just it’s not just because, oncologists spend a lot of time learning what they learn. But yeah, absolutely. That does not include the other big half, which is what can I do as the patient to better ready myself to get the best possible results from whatever treatments are being advised to me.
00:25:12:00 – 00:25:22:09
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
And so that’s I see that as a crucial role in and in what you’re doing that has not been there before. It’s been people have had to go out and try to figure this out on their own.
00:25:22:11 – 00:25:50:02
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
But when you have an orchestra, you generally have a maestro. And I look at the dendritic cells as the maestro of the immune system, but you need somebody to orchestrate the whole thing, right, to create the true course, which creates a harmony, harmony in the body. That’s the integrative physicians. That’s it’s really the patient bringing everybody together. Because at the end of the day, all of us, all of us practitioners, we work for the we work for the, the patient.
00:25:50:04 – 00:25:57:18
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
And so somebody is orchestrating it and there’s different levels of orchestration. And I think it’s a beautiful term that you brought to the table.
00:25:57:20 – 00:26:19:12
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
Dan, I wish we could sit here for another hour and go through this, but I just right now, I want to thank you for your leadership in this in this area. I think, our care that we provide here at Riordan Clinic has been multiplied ten times since we’ve been using the necromantic oncologists. And we we make it a very important part of our care.
00:26:19:14 – 00:26:53:00
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
And so your leadership, your vision, and your understanding of the basic sciences and being able to put those things together to give people a unified approach to their cancer, I think it’s going to result in much, much longer survival time, better quality of life. And a sense that I can win. I can beat this because so many people, they come in with their cancers and they’re in a very fatalistic place, and they’re doing the best they can, but they need someone that they can really trust that knows the way home to better health.
00:26:53:00 – 00:27:18:10
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
So I just want to thank you for all you’re doing, and I hope we can continue to collaborate together in this, great journey, because as as we started out with this is not getting smaller. It seems to be growing. So, innovative, approaches are integrative, integrative and holistic are going to be very important words in the coming decades.
00:27:18:10 – 00:27:20:23
Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD
So thank you so much for your work.
00:27:21:00 – 00:27:22:03
Dr.Dan Rubin, ND FABNO
Thank you.
00:27:22:05 – 00:27:42:12
Narrator
Thank you for listening to The Real Health podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episodes in show notes over at Real Health podcast.org. Also, be sure to visit RiordanClinic.org, where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of real health.
