In this episode of the Real Health Podcast, Chief Medical Officer Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD, and Dr. Thomas Levy, MD, JD, discuss the the secret health saboteur you can’t see, dental biofilms.
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Links
Learn more about the hosts: Dr. Thomas Levy: https://riordanclinic.org/staff/thomas-levy-md-jd/
Dr. Ron Hunninghake: https://riordanclinic.org/staff/ron-hunninghake-md/
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Read the Transcript
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00:00:57:21 – 00:01:11:15
Narrator
This is the Real Health podcast brought to you by Reardon Clinic. Our mission is to bring you the latest information and top experts in functional and integrative medicine to help you make informed decisions on your path to real health.
00:01:11:17 – 00:01:39:04
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Well, welcome everyone to another edition of the Are in Clinic podcast real health podcast. I’m doctor Ron Hunninghake. I’ve got it as my guest today. Doctor Thomas Levy, a really good friend of mine and a friend of the Riordan Clinic and a friend of many people who, seek his advice on nutrition and the the dental connection to to health.
00:01:39:06 – 00:02:06:24
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Oh, my gosh. And today we’re going to be jumping into the discussion of biofilms. And I was I was trying to think back the first time I’ve known doctor Tom for many years, it seems like we were in South America giving a lecture somewhere, and you started talking about dental biofilms and how it’s one of the most overlooked, most important subjects that people could possibly get into.
00:02:07:01 – 00:02:14:21
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
And I thought, what dental biofilms. Why are they so important? What is what what’s the what’s your story on that?
00:02:14:23 – 00:02:46:02
Dr. Thomas Levy
Well, I think the first thing to make clear to anybody taking the time to listen to us today, Doctor Ron, is to know what about biofilm in a nutshell, is very interesting is whenever pathogens, often bacteria, but also viruses to stop circulating freely in the blood or the lymphatic fluids and attach to a physical therapist mucous membrane, whatever.
00:02:46:04 – 00:03:27:10
Dr. Thomas Levy
Literally within 24 hours, they’re encased with a substance called a biofilm, where they secrete the the material that basically they, they they they build themselves an armor, they build themselves an armor. And it can be called that because this biofilm or pathogen generated armor actually, protects those pathogens from antibiotics. And it’s well-established in the literature, but maybe not well acknowledged that once you have pathogens covered by a biofilm, there’s not a single antibiotic in existence that will wipe out the pathogens.
00:03:27:12 – 00:04:02:14
Dr. Thomas Levy
So once you have pathogens clinging to a mucosal surface or an epithelial surface or another area in the body can be in the mouth, can be around the teeth, can be in the upper airways and in the nose and throat. It’s going to stay there. It’s going to stay there. And the nasty part about that is oftentimes about more often than not, when you have passages in your nose and throat or in your teeth or in your oral cavity, and they’re covered by a biofilm, they’re asymptomatic.
00:04:02:18 – 00:04:24:03
Dr. Thomas Levy
You don’t know it. In other words, it doesn’t just happen if you have a cold or something like that, you feel that these pathogens, this is their sort of their natural environment is to get in there, colonize and just set up shop indifferently, indefinitely. They’re not proliferating rapidly so that you have a overt infection like the flu or something like that.
00:04:24:03 – 00:05:06:05
Dr. Thomas Levy
They’re just sort of steady state, sort of steady state. They’re just doing what they need to do. And this then creates the real problem with biofilms is the metabolism of the pathogens, the packages, even though they’re growing much more slowly, they’re continually generating pro oxidant toxic aka toxic pro oxidative metabolic byproducts as the metabolism goes. And then when the pathogen itself finally does die because it still has a lifespan like anything else, and it breaks down and ruptures, that’s more pro oxidant stuff and that’s filled with iron.
00:05:06:11 – 00:05:36:07
Dr. Thomas Levy
Yeah, we the people might not know that most pathogens thrive on iron, and the more iron is present, the more rapid the pathogen grows. But the point being is, is once the pathogen dies, it’s like rupturing a little sack of free iron. And we’ve talked in the past about how toxic iron is. And if anybody listening doesn’t realize that iron is one of the most toxic things that you can take in your body beyond the precise level that you need.
00:05:36:09 – 00:05:50:15
Dr. Thomas Levy
Okay, above that highly toxic like copper, above that highly toxic calcium level, that highly toxic, what I call the three toxic nutrients. So that’s that’s more or less a little encapsulation, if you will, of the biofilm story.
00:05:50:15 – 00:06:18:01
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Fantastic. And what that makes me think of is why vitamin C is so important. Because vitamin C, when it goes intracellular, it will generate the hydroxyl radical in the presence of the iron. So when people say why is vitamin C so effective against infections? And I would hope that it would be effective against biofilms for this very reason.
00:06:18:01 – 00:06:31:19
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
The accumulation of iron will help the vitamin C to generate more peroxide, which will help break through this barrier that the that the pathogens form around themselves. I don’t know my I off key on that or.
00:06:31:21 – 00:07:04:06
Dr. Thomas Levy
No. That’s a very interesting point too because hydrogen peroxide pure and simple, along with other things like DMSO. But let’s not get into that. But hydrogen peroxide, which we’ve talked about in the past, is easily disrupts it eliminates biofilms and then easily can kill the pathogens and what you just said there brings up the good point. The excellent possibility is that taking the vitamin C then stimulates the endogenous form.
00:07:04:08 – 00:07:17:05
Dr. Thomas Levy
In the endogenous production of the hydrogen peroxide. That could help it do that. I’ll be candid, as I say, in my research on biofilms and the Rapid virus recovery book, I did not specifically.
00:07:17:07 – 00:07:40:24
Dr. Thomas Levy
Look, in the literature, does vitamin C disrupt biofilms? So I can’t give a yes or no answer to that except to say that clinically, I would say it does. That’s what we’ve seen. But, but certainly the role that it plays when you take it a large dose of, a vitamin C like you do at the real clinic, 25g, 50g diffusion, a lot of it goes straight into the cell.
00:07:41:01 – 00:08:18:10
Dr. Thomas Levy
Okay. Providing an electron source for, ferric. I had to go to ferrous I, and then the ferrous I. It contributes the electron to hydrogen peroxide, which makes hydroxyl radical. It ruptures the pathogen of the cell, but at the same time that’s happening, the large amount of vitamin C that you’re taking by mechanisms I don’t understand or know, but is the fact that large amounts of vitamin C in the extracellular space before it gets into the cell also generates new extracellular hydrogen peroxide production, which then it’s free to diffuse inside the cell.
00:08:18:12 – 00:08:45:01
Dr. Thomas Levy
So you keep all the facets of that fetid reaction that you’re calling your reaction going until the pathogen is completely gone. And to make it even more elegant, the more hydrogen peroxide you put inside the cell, the more you mobilize new ferric iron from. It’s, ferrous. Ferrous is storage sites so that you keep all three components of the reaction.
00:08:45:03 – 00:09:11:14
Dr. Thomas Levy
Healed up with a large amount of vitamin C, and then you have the iron, and then you have the peroxide. Then you have the hydroxide. So as you well know, with your background, Doctor Ron, there’s a lot of chemical reactions and they do a lot of things. But if you want to do them until the job is done, you need to make sure each part of that chemical reaction continues to get new supply of material to work on.
00:09:11:16 – 00:09:44:22
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
A lot of people are using peroxide for teeth whitening, and I’m wondering if that’s a good thing for what we’re talking about here because, I know you’ve had extensive experience, working, in the dental field. And, sometimes it’s hard to get people to realize how important the care of their teeth really is. And I’m does does hydrogen peroxide taken orally, not swallowed, but gargling with it and swishing it around?
00:09:45:00 – 00:09:49:15
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Or is this a good idea to help prevent dental biofilms?
00:09:49:17 – 00:10:27:24
Dr. Thomas Levy
Absolutely. No question that, in fact it’s probably the cheapest and easiest and most effective. There’s the big three for you. Yeah, easy and effective right way to deal with it. And it also goes a long way toward helping to prevent new re colonization of your nose and throat with new pathogens that you get exposed to. Because I just talked about what happens when you swallow these things and you disrupt the digestion and the microbiome, and then you start absorbing toxins and other pathogens, all because you’ve been swallowing toxins from these, from these growing pathogens.
00:10:28:01 – 00:10:51:01
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
One of the most interesting things that came out of the pandemic, I don’t know if people know, but, you know, you wrote the book on how to deal with that using, nebulizer and hydrogen peroxide nebulizer. And one of the things that you told me is one of your, people that got the book started using it. His diarrhea of 20 years went away.
00:10:51:01 – 00:11:12:08
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Is that did he how does that play into the whole biofilm question? Because I’m thinking there’s got to be something he had in his nose and sinuses that he was swallowing that was perpetuating, the bad bacteria in the gut. And by cleaning that up, maybe that’s what got him out of that, that cycle.
00:11:12:10 – 00:11:37:00
Dr. Thomas Levy
Absolutely. I don’t think there’s any question about it. As a matter of fact, when I was writing Rapid Virus Recovery and, at the beginning of 2021, obviously I wanted to make an impact on good living as much as I can to slow down or stop the pandemic by getting this information out. But I was observing so many phenomenal things on the positive effect on the gut.
00:11:37:02 – 00:11:49:18
Dr. Thomas Levy
I almost called the book Rapid Gut Recovery, by hydrogen peroxide. But I said, no, that’ll just be confusing to people. Let’s just keep it rapid. Virus recovery. But.
00:11:49:20 – 00:12:23:07
Dr. Thomas Levy
It’s my conviction. Based on what I’ve seen, the feedback that I’ve gotten from patients, the path of physiology, of physiology that I’ve outlined in the book Rapid Recovery is that, like I said, unless you do an intervention with something like peroxide, if you had a cold or flu or any other relatively mental airman, any time in your past six months ago, six years ago, 16 years ago, and you never took an intervention that could penetrate the biofilms you’re talking about, right?
00:12:23:07 – 00:12:46:05
Dr. Thomas Levy
Right. Because they can stay there and they’ll they’ll live with you entire your life. Wow. Okay. So unless you did something after you had a cold 15 years ago, just strip out the biofilms and kill the pathogens that are growing on your nose and throat. You will continue to swallow these toxic byproducts from the pathogen colonization. And that’s exactly what happens.
00:12:46:05 – 00:13:10:16
Dr. Thomas Levy
I have had the feedback, you talk about the diarrhea, which you just mentioned. That’s impressive. But guess what? I had a lady write me and said, you know, my son’s been critically ill and bedridden with Crohn’s disease for over two years now. He can’t get out of bed this week. The five the other bottom line is with with just some regular supplementation, nothing to overwhelm your preps.
00:13:10:16 – 00:13:34:22
Dr. Thomas Levy
We started the peroxide nebulizer and within, I think 2 or 3 months, 2 or 3 months, he was completely normal. Now you you certainly know growth is quote unquote. Yeah. A lifetime incurable disease. Well, he got out of bed. He became an athlete at school, started gaining weight, because he was kind of scrawny at the time.
00:13:34:24 – 00:14:02:08
Dr. Thomas Levy
Another lady, wrote me like this that had black mold poisoning her and her entire family. And without going into great detail, she said when they started nebulizer, the hydrogen peroxide, it all disappeared. It all disappeared. I had another couple ladies tell me about irritable bowel syndrome, very similar to what you’re talking about with the diarrhea. They’ve had it for months just being or the peroxide mobilization for a week or two.
00:14:02:10 – 00:14:31:17
Dr. Thomas Levy
No more irritable bowel. And it’s all started. Let me be candid. I started messing with nebulizer, long before the pandemic, about 7 or 8 years ago, doing the research for my magnesium book. And I never thought about nebulizer, but it has sinus problems my whole life. And I and I saw in my visual, you can nebulizer magnesium or you can write a machine or you can nebulizer many other things.
00:14:31:19 – 00:15:03:01
Dr. Thomas Levy
And I additionally saw peroxide and I said, well, I already always knew that peroxide was a tremendous antipathies. So one day I nebulizer peroxide for about 10 or 15 minutes. No big deal, just fine. And the next day I had the most incredible perfect bowel movement of my life, and I. I was about 66 at that time, so I’d had a few bumps in my life and none of them were like this.
00:15:03:03 – 00:15:32:14
Dr. Thomas Levy
So I said, my goodness, this is what happens when you give the gut enough of a chance to recover. Because although that was really rapid, many other conditions resolve quickly because you have intestinal stem cells that basically give you a new lining in your gut every 3 or 4 days, right? So if you stop poisoning, you could basically have a new gut in a week.
00:15:32:16 – 00:15:58:17
Dr. Thomas Levy
All right. And then after that with the bile. But when the microbiome changes, the leaky gut heals up. And as you well know, once you stop this horrible contribution of pathogens, the toxins coming from a lousy gut, everything gets better. And of course, we see the lines and the drug stores, all the different lotions and potions for diarrhea, constipation, gas, flashlight.
00:15:58:19 – 00:16:28:04
Dr. Thomas Levy
I I’m if I’m oversimplifying this, let’s not buy too much because when you stop this stuff, it’s amazing how well the gut does. Also, I want to add to baby babies. I just saw, In rich food they add metallic iron filings. Oh, cheese. Even if they added regular iron, that’d be bad. Supplemental iron. And I saw in in it, just like you’ve seen it.
00:16:28:06 – 00:16:59:11
Dr. Thomas Levy
Just running a magnet through the infant, oatmeal, I believe it was. You could pick up the iron filings. Does anybody wonder why the baby gets an upset stomach so often? Why? Needs to be burped? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you’re lucky your babies are surviving. Okay. So, I wasn’t going to go in this direction, but, I mean, that’s another toxic contribution to all the chronic bile produced by the mine is most people do not eat organic.
00:16:59:13 – 00:17:25:09
Dr. Thomas Levy
Okay? It organic most of the time is going to leave you free from this horrible supplementation they put in our foods. And because they can’t afford it for one thing. All right, I don’t tried everywhere, but when you’re when you’re eating a metallic form of a metal in every meal that you eat, not only do you have a proactive effect in your gut, guess what else you have?
00:17:25:11 – 00:17:43:13
Dr. Thomas Levy
Foreign body reaction. Yeah. All right, when you put it out there, then you get a local inflammation to kind of wall that off. So there’s just so many horrible things that happen. But if we just leave our damn food or are they would leave our damn food alone, we do a whole lot better.
00:17:43:15 – 00:18:13:10
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Yeah. I kept thinking about all the patients I’ve seen over the years with chronic sinus infections, and oftentimes what they get is round. After round of antibiotics, which really don’t, as you mentioned, do not penetrate the biofilms. But then the other thing is they’re swallowing that stuff too. So so that’s what you’re saying about how what’s happening in the sinuses can affect what’s happening in the gut.
00:18:13:12 – 00:18:28:09
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
But for people, if they want to get over a chronic sinus problem, they’re going to need to think about some kind of peroxide spray or something to get peroxide up there. If you try it, you obviously you have to be careful with it. But,
00:18:28:11 – 00:18:48:24
Dr. Thomas Levy
And the most important thing they need to do, the chronic sinus sufferer, chronic sinusitis sufferer, they need to get the three dekho beam exam at the mouth because and this actually stunned me when I first saw it. And then when I thought about it a while, like, wasn’t that amazing? Because people, they get chronic sinus infections, they just kind of keep it forever, right?
00:18:48:24 – 00:19:22:13
Dr. Thomas Levy
Yeah. Well, if you have an asymptomatic infected tooth, it doesn’t hurt you. You keep it forever. 70%, 70% of patients with chronic serious problems had one or more infected tooth teeth, in the upper jaw. But so, I mean, with the upper jaw bone at the bottom of the tooth, it’s directly abutting the sinus. So you have a little infected pocket right there continually, oftentimes eroding away the bony floor of the scientists completely and putting the, infective products directly into the side itself.
00:19:22:15 – 00:19:47:00
Dr. Thomas Levy
But if that’s ruled out there, then then you need to work on the other stuff. But, the other thing to not too much time to talk about it is if you’ve ruled out these chronic, provocative reasons for having an infection like sinusitis and you still have it, a lot of times that’s adrenal insufficiency, okay? You’re just not getting enough vitamin C inside your cells to keep a normal state.
00:19:47:02 – 00:20:16:16
Dr. Thomas Levy
And as we’ve talked about, cortisol that your adrenal glands naturally make arguably, in my opinion, based on the scientists that I’ve reviewed, is that the primary purpose of cortisol and hydrocortisone is to push vitamin C inside the cells. Okay. So when you don’t have enough cortisol, the characteristics of somebody’s adrenal insufficient is continued repeated infections. They just can’t prevent for having infections.
00:20:16:16 – 00:20:48:10
Dr. Thomas Levy
But once you hit them with vitamin C and with cortisol and we’ve talked about this. This is not steroid therapy. This is ortho molecular hormone replacement okay. And there’s nothing to be afraid of as a physician or as the patient being prescribed for to take variable doses of cortisol, especially when you see it start to eliminate your infections, which is just a direct documentation that you’ve been cortisol insufficient for quite a long time.
00:20:48:12 – 00:21:18:08
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
People who are chronically ill with sinus infections or any kind of infections, they tend to be tired all the time. And when we check their cortisol levels, they’re low there. They may not be totally in the abnormal range, but they’re in the low normal range. And unless you give them some kind of, adaptogen or the biological hydrocortisone, most people when you say cortisone, they’re that what they’ve been given as prednisone and one milligram.
00:21:18:09 – 00:21:19:05
Dr. Thomas Levy
Or one.
00:21:19:05 – 00:21:40:01
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Milligram of the zone is like five milligrams of hydrocortisone. So if you’re having 5 to 10 or 15 or 20mg of high hydrocortisone, that’s only like 3 to 4mg of prendere zone. So most doctors give 20 to 40mg of prentiss, when they give it. So they’re like, overshooting. And then you get the side effects of too much cortisone.
00:21:40:03 – 00:21:43:03
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
So it’s kind of giving cortisol a bad name.
00:21:43:05 – 00:22:08:16
Dr. Thomas Levy
Right? No. No doubt about it. I mean, and the thing is, is, prednisone, methylprednisolone, deca drawn all of those synthetic corticosteroids, these are not made by your body. These were made in a laboratory. They’re what I call sledgehammers. Okay? I mean, the cortisol just massages the vitamin C into the cell. The other thing to, we have so little time.
00:22:08:16 – 00:22:34:06
Dr. Thomas Levy
But the other thing, too, is, as you well know, your liver should be making vitamin C around the clock. And when you have a stress reaction, your liver should make more vitamin C at the same time, it makes more cortisol y because the vitamin C and the cortisol, meaning the blood, go inside the immune cells and go toward the side of inflammation for your acute immune response.
00:22:34:08 – 00:23:03:22
Dr. Thomas Levy
So, but when you take prednisone or something like that, you do not only are you hitting it too hard, but in the human being that has lost the ability to make the vitamin C from glucose, then the glucose accumulates and the prednisone does something called gluconeogenesis starts making even more glucose while using up the protein in your muscles.
00:23:03:22 – 00:23:19:00
Dr. Thomas Levy
So that’s why you have the long term steroid problem of muscle wasting and diabetes, which you will not see never see with cortisol and vitamin C taken together.
00:23:19:02 – 00:23:37:05
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Wow. It’s amazing. We started with biofilm and we ended up, you know, with iron filings and the nasal, the things that we’re swallowing from our infected sinuses causing our Crohn’s disease. It’s all tied together though.
00:23:37:07 – 00:23:38:10
Dr. Thomas Levy
But tied to it.
00:23:38:10 – 00:23:56:15
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
But people need to kind of understand it in the context of the whole, the whole being and what we can do to help ourselves. But back to the simple point. If people would do a better job of breaking down biofilm in their mouth, that would solve a lot of health problems. Not just dental problems, but overall health problems.
00:23:56:15 – 00:24:29:17
Dr. Thomas Levy
So and that’s where, you were talking about gargling with peroxide and all, which is good. But, probably just about the best thing you can do for long term dental health, which means long term general health, of course. Yeah. Is regular water picky with hydrogen peroxide? I mean, not pure hydrogen peroxide, but a, a container, warm water, and then you add maybe 30 or 40 6 to 3% hydrogen peroxide, maybe some mouthwash if you want a flavor to it.
00:24:29:19 – 00:24:56:04
Dr. Thomas Levy
And this way that gets in there. Okay. Yeah. A lot of the and that only will kill the pathogens but it will help it will disrupt the biofilm. So you’re going to disrupt the biofilm kill the pathogens. And that is ultimately might be oversimplifying but not that much. That is ultimately the reason why you get all dental disease is you’d never get infected teeth infected tonsils with healthy gums.
00:24:56:04 – 00:25:21:18
Dr. Thomas Levy
It all starts with the gums. I mean, the teeth are sitting in the gums, and then as they become infected, they start breaking down the attachment between the paradigm teeth and the gum tissue and the tooth until they reach the tip of the tooth. Then into the pulp of the tooth. You have an infected tooth and you’re no longer doing well, but in fact, the teeth, which then lead to the effective Titus, which I’ve talked about.
00:25:21:18 – 00:25:22:14
Dr. Thomas Levy
But that’s right.
00:25:22:19 – 00:25:51:07
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Right. Okay. Last word. Are there besides vitamin C, are there any other herbal remedies or natural remedies that help with the body’s constant conflict with, biofilms? Because it’s I think it’s almost like. The germs want to use us as a home, unfortunately. What can we do to prevent that?
00:25:51:09 – 00:26:19:00
Dr. Thomas Levy
Well. Anytime you have a cold or flu or something, or any sort of upper respiratory tract infection, you still do need, in my opinion, okay, to go through not a diet a lot, some degree of peroxide nebulizer ation to reset the pathogens inside there. Okay. Yeah. Because, but a hydrogen peroxide will do it. I believe fluoride, chlorine dioxide will do it.
00:26:19:02 – 00:26:41:20
Dr. Thomas Levy
Yeah, but I don’t generally go after chlorine dioxide because it has a bleach smell to it. And I think a lot of people would only get turned off by the smell, but they would also reach the conclusion that you’re doing something horrible to the body by giving it something smells like bleach. We’ve had all this hysteria, the press before, even though guess what?
00:26:41:20 – 00:27:12:12
Dr. Thomas Levy
Quarry dioxide is also made in your body just like hydrogen peroxide is made in your body. So, some agent like that to sort of reset things, and then proceed from there. And of course, the rest of it is done to maintain prophylactically preventatively, as non-infected infective state as you can with, of course, all our bio oxidative therapies and the vitamin C, a good supplementation.
00:27:12:14 – 00:27:51:18
Dr. Thomas Levy
I’ll let me give me a give them all my super eight supplements. All right. Good. Okay. Multigrain vitamin C, multigrain magnesium vitamin D3 to get you about 50 down to grand per cc. Vitamin K to these help normalize calcium. Yeah. And the other four help upregulate ATP, which makes everything in every cell in your body better. That multi gram or at least one gram niacinamide 400 cc to 400mg of vitamin K2, riboflavin as much as a gram.
00:27:51:19 – 00:28:12:13
Dr. Thomas Levy
I like to be aggressive with this one, even though it’s a little costlier as much as a gram a day of coenzyme Q10, and then 10 to 20 to 30mg of methylene blue a day. All of those rapidly upregulate 80 period. When you’re high in ATP, you’re high in energy. When you’re low in ATP, you’re low in energy.
00:28:12:15 – 00:28:21:12
Dr. Thomas Levy
And when your ATP is really low, you got nothing left to be energetic about, AKA that that.
00:28:21:14 – 00:28:42:20
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
Doctor Tom, thank you so much for another exciting show. I mean, it really, it’s amazing what people can learn by just some simple basics and what they can do for themselves to take better care and stay out of the sickness crowd and, live life in a vibrant way. So thank you so much for being on our show.
00:28:42:22 – 00:28:44:17
Dr. Thomas Levy
I pleasure. Sure. You take care.
00:28:44:18 – 00:28:45:22
Dr. Ron Hunninghake
You too.
00:28:45:24 – 00:29:06:06
Narrator
Thank you for listening to The Real Health podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episodes in show notes over at Real Health podcast.org. Also, be sure to visit RiordanClinic.org where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of real health.
