Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:00:00]: The information contained on the Real Health Podcast and the resources mentioned are for educational purposes only. They are not intended as and shall not be understood or construed as medical or health advice. The information contained on this podcast is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation. Information provided by hosts and guests on the Real Health Podcast or the use of any products or services mentioned does not create a practitioner-patient relationship between you and any persons affiliated with this podcast. This is the Real Health Podcast brought to you by Riordan Clinic. Our mission is to bring you the latest information and top experts in functional and integrative medicine to help you make informed decisions on your path to real health. Drew Rose, DO [00:00:56]: Welcome back to another episode of the Real Health Podcast. My name is Dr. Drew. I am accompanied today by my cohorts Dr. West and Dr. Dunn. We are trialing a new series here that we have aptly named the Riordan Roundtable. The idea is for the third generation of providers here, the three of us, to come together, talk about topics that will be applicable to potential co learners, co learners that are already established and anyone else in the community. Ultimately, since it is our first episode here, I kind of want to start off a little bit more broad and just get to know us a little bit more than what we've been able to see through podcasts and Health Hunter articles. So first of all ladies, how are you doing today? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:01:42]: Good. Drew Rose, DO [00:01:43]: Awesome. How are you doing? Well, thank you. It's been kind of a weird week weather wise. So for those who don't know, obviously I am here in Wichita. Dr. Dunn is stationed in Overlook park, out just suburb of Kansas city. And then Dr. West actually is joining us from Castle Rock, Colorado. So just south of Denver. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:02:05]: Correct, where we had snow today. Drew Rose, DO [00:02:08]: Really? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:02:09]: Yeah. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:02:09]: Oh my goodness. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:02:10]: We woke up to snow. Drew Rose, DO [00:02:11]: A little jealous, but also you guys need it, so I'll let you have that one. All right, so today, since it's our first round table, obviously much more laid back format here, really want to get to know a little bit more about you ladies and ultimately what led you both into medicine. So Dr. Dunn, let's start with you. What led you into medicine? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:02:34]: Well, I mean I think I've always had an interest in health. I really in high school became interested in fitness and so when I went to college I studied exercise physiology and I was also pre med and I was going to try to incorporate just like health and well being into some sort of medical practice. And then I had a friend that Was living out in Portland and told me about naturopathic medical school. I'd never heard of it. I grew up in Oklahoma and had just never, never heard of naturopathic medicine. And it really. When, you know, I looked it up and. And it just was exactly what I wanted to study. So it was that health and wellness and fitness and. And the focus on health rather than the focus on disease. I knew I didn't want to sit in an office and just, you know, hand out prescriptions for various disorders. I wanted to help people feel well and be healthy. And so when I. When I read about it, I was like, oh, this. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:03:39]: This is it. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:03:40]: I just didn't know it existed in a formal program. And so I applied, and that's. That's the route I went. Drew Rose, DO [00:03:47]: You know, exercise science, too, is no joke. I mean, you're. The curriculum is kind of rigorous. Actually, the more I found out about it when I was in college. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:03:55]: Right. Drew Rose, DO [00:03:55]: It's not just taking, like, exercise classes. There's so much more to it. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:03:59]: Although I did teach exercise classes and aerobics all through. Through undergrad and even through medical school. I taught aerobics classes. Drew Rose, DO [00:04:08]: That. That was actually a great stress reliever. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:04:11]: There was. Drew Rose, DO [00:04:12]: There was awesome. Dr. West. Right. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:04:19]: A little step aerobics class out here in IV complainants. Drew Rose, DO [00:04:23]: Oh, my gosh. It'll be amazing. Dr. West, what's your origin story? What brought you into medicine? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:04:29]: You know, I was trying to reflect on that. I was like, I don't know if I can remember. But then I did remember my mom was in medicine. My mom was a nurse. So I ended up spending a lot of time at the hospital with her and just watching how healthcare worked and then decided, I want to be a psychiatrist. So she got me set up to shadows and psychiatrists when I was in high school and realized, no, I don't want to be a psychiatrist. Drew Rose, DO [00:04:53]: There it is. Yep. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:04:55]: But I did really. It sparked my interest in the combination or the connection between mental health and overall health. Yeah. And then I started to go down. I was like, well, I still want to go to medical school. Maybe I just want to be a different doctor. Was an ancillary health technician. So I drew blood and did EKGs around the hospital and watched how doctors were able to. Are not able to spend time with patients and decided, maybe this is not what I want to do. So I ended up looking into Chinese medical school. And then I think, similar story to Stacy or Dr. Dunn. I happened upon naturopathic medicine when I was looking at Chinese medical school. And read the definition and was like, this is exactly what I was looking for. And my mom actually pushed me. She's like, this is the future of healthcare. Drew Rose, DO [00:05:44]: So that's amazing. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:05:46]: And that's what I did. Drew Rose, DO [00:05:47]: So I want to get into the naturopathic schooling and what that looks like, but just briefly, because I was, I was kind of just doing a refresher and looking. As most people know, I am an osteopath. So a do. And the, the different philosophies between the allopathic tradition, which is the medical doctors, the MDs, and then the osteopathic. The main difference there is mostly one is more disease centered, really looks at these symptoms are caused by a disease and that disease has this treatment or this is what we can do for it. And that tradition goes back thousands of years. I mean, back to Egyptian times. And then the osteopathic tradition started in the late 1800s with Dr. A.T. still, there's a totally other podcast that if you guys want to get into it, we could always, you know, refer to people to that one. So I won't go too far into it, but that's who I am. The, the, the basis of osteopathy is trying to find the health, not just disease. Right. So looking at, you know, naturopathic doctors, can you guys just kind of talk a little bit about the philosophy behind natural naturopathic medicine and what the schooling looks like? Dr. West, you kind of mentioned stuff. I mean, can you kind of start off there and see why naturopathic medicine? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:07:05]: Because it was getting to the root cause. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:07:07]: Okay. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:07:07]: And it was utilizing other things besides. And we're going to talk more about that. I know, but it's about using things such as supplements and dietary intake and lifestyle changes and things like that to really help the body to be well. I think that tenet of natural medicine that I fell in love with so much is the fact that the body wants to be well. Drew Rose, DO [00:07:26]: Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:07:27]: And I think that in traditional medicine there's really a focus on disease, and in naturopathic medicine, there's a focus on health and wellness. And that's what really drew me to it. And I don't know about you, Dr. Dunn, but I was actually, I was a little surprised going into naturopathic medical school, the amount of science. I mean, I knew we were going to have science, but it was. Our first two years were just strictly science based. There were quite a few that dropped out of my first class because I don't think they expected naturopathic medicine to Drew Rose, DO [00:07:57]: be like that, that's pretty normal in like any medical school. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:08:00]: Yeah, exactly. Right. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:08:02]: So I think the first two years are pretty comparable to any other medical school. I mean, it's grounded in that philosophy though of wellness and then, you know, but our toolbox is different, you know, and so we're, you know, it's the, the years following that we're learning about treatments and include nutrition and, and, you know, some nutraceuticals and, and, yeah, and herbs, you know, and acupuncture and all the things. And so. Yeah, but I think the two, the, the first two years are pretty comparable to any other medical school. Drew Rose, DO [00:08:36]: So the first two years, a lot of didactics and like a lot of lectures. Spending most of the time in the books. Correct. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:08:43]: Yeah. And pharmacology was actually one of our hardest courses because not only did we have to learn about the drugs, but we had to learn about the herbs and the interactions. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:08:51]: Yeah, yeah. Drew Rose, DO [00:08:52]: So I am actually so jealous of that because it's always been something with me. I mean, part of the reason I got into medicine too is because of my own health struggles as a child. Yeah, I had EBV that was so bad it took me out of seventh grade for an entire semester. My entire eighth semester looked, or not eighth semester, but eighth grade looked completely different than other people's too because of risks and everything that went along with it. And then as I got older and kind of got interested, similar to Dr. West here, I, I was a phlebotomist for a while and it just kind of got exposed and always answer asked the questions why? But you know, looking back at my schooling, I feel like I missed a lot of the natural parts of what this world offers to heal you. And I was always raised to believe like food is medicine, you know, the sun is medicine, like nature is medicine. And it's not just a pharmacology. Now mind you, that came from a father who was also a pharmaceutical rep. So I appreciated having both sides of things, but it never translated into conventional training. So I think that's amazing that you guys get exposed to that. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:10:03]: Yeah. So well then you bring in the oncology world and it's a whole new ballgame. Drew Rose, DO [00:10:07]: Oh, we're going to get there so real quick. So like first and second year, it's, it's mostly didactics. What are your, is it a four year program? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:10:16]: Yes. Drew Rose, DO [00:10:16]: So third program. Speak to the third and fourth year. What do you see there? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:10:21]: Lots of clinic, lots of clinical. Drew Rose, DO [00:10:25]: And then do you have like a residency afterwards? What does that look like. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:10:28]: That's a good question. Unfortunately, in our profession, there, at least when I was in school, there weren't. And I think it's still the same. There weren't enough residencies for the number of graduates. So very competitive. A lot of people. And, you know, honestly, a lot of people didn't want to take a residency. They wanted to. They kind of got grandfather into residencies, not a true residency, but by going and working in a clinic with another doctor and learning from them. So that's a path a lot of other doctors take. But for those of us who did have residency, it's. My residency was two years, and I did mine at cancer treatment centers of America. Drew Rose, DO [00:11:06]: Okay, so the residency. Is that how you became, like, an integrative oncologist here? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:11:14]: It was how I was able to become a fellow on the American board in astropathic oncology. Okay, but Dr. Dunn, I think her path was a little bit different. Drew Rose, DO [00:11:24]: Oh, let's hear it. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:11:26]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:11:28]: I didn't do a residency. I. Yeah, I got married right out to medical school, and my husband got a job in Dallas, Texas, and there were no other naturopaths in Dallas, so I opened up my own practice there. And so was. Was solo at the time, so definitely wasn't doing a residency. But I had a lot of mentors that I would call and bug and. And they help me along the way. But. And then, you know. You know, when we were talking about oncology, like, did. That's. I wasn't planning on specializing in oncology, but that's who came to see me. I started to see a lot of cancer patients, and then they were feeling better, so they would tell other patients, and then they would tell their oncologist, and then the oncologist would start referring to me. So it didn't take long to fill an oncology practice, but to be on your own, you know, in this big city, practicing integrative oncology was. I was like, oh, my goodness. I really felt like I needed a bigger. Like, a deep dive in this. And So I joined CTCA and was actually Dr. West, supervising physician, which was a resident there. And. And so, yeah, my route was different. I, you know, and I was. I was paired with the chief of medical oncology at ctca, and. And so it was just an immersive learning, you know, environment. And then I really had a much better grasp of. On the conventional side of things by doing that, and. Which then helped me be a better integrative provider. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:13:04]: Yeah, we truly were blessed with that experience. Drew Rose, DO [00:13:07]: Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:13:08]: I mean, we, a medical oncologist, radiation oncologist, surgical oncologist, nutritionists, all under one roof, all round tabling on patients in the morning so that everybody was on the same page. I mean, patients came in knowing exactly what the next person was going to say. It was the best experience. Drew Rose, DO [00:13:24]: That's true integrative medicine. I mean, that's like the model of what health care should be like, in my opinion. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:13:30]: Yep, agreed. Agreed. Drew Rose, DO [00:13:32]: So, and that's something that I don't see in the conventional side of medicine. I haven't seen. You know, we might have more infrastructure than you guys, but at the same time, I feel like there's a lot of gaps there that more conventionally trained providers are starting to recognize once you get out and start practicing. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:13:47]: Right. Drew Rose, DO [00:13:48]: So I really do think you guys, at least from my opinion, my humble opinion, you guys have a leg up on the way you see disease and the way you see health. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:14:00]: Well, I think the benefit for Dr. Dunn and I, which again, I'm so fortunate about, is we're able to speak both languages because of that training. Drew Rose, DO [00:14:08]: Yeah. And I'm. I'm just now learning how to speak the integrative side of things. It's something that's always been interesting. But I have leaned on you, both of you, and Dr. Nissli so much these past seven months that I've been here. And I've learned so much in just less than a year than I did probably in three years of residency. So I appreciate you guys, but let's kind of shift gears here and kind of talk about, just briefly, how do you guys come to reardon clinic then? Dr. West, you were first, is that correct? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:14:37]: Yeah. I got this email out of the blue from the, the recruiter at the time. And I heard about the rearding clinic from one of my mom's friends who grew up in Kansas, one of her best friends. And I knew that we were using the Riordan Clinic protocols in my clinic in Boulder for high dose vitamin C and things like that. So I knew about the Riordan Clinic. And so when I got the email, it really sparked my interest. But then I was like, I don't know if I can move to Kansas because my family's in color. So I was like, I don't know. But I thought chance favors those prepared one of the best goals. So I was like, let me, let me reach out, let me see what this is about, and started dialogue, created some great relationships over email and over phone. And the history is that I was offered a telemedicine physician and end up. And I do, I do truly enjoy coming to Kansas. So I will come about once. I try to come once a month or once every two months to see my patients, but the majority of my practice is telemedicine. Drew Rose, DO [00:15:40]: Yeah. And once you're here, you fill up quick too. Like bird gets out. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:15:46]: Yeah, yeah. So that's wonderful. The thing about medicine these days, which is very, I think Covid really enabled this to happen. But so much of medicine now does happen virtually and over the phone. But that one on one, that, that in person, it's, it's important. It really is. Drew Rose, DO [00:16:03]: So Dr. Dunn, how do you end up coming to reardon clinic? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:16:07]: Well, Dr. West, as I said, we worked together previously and there, there was a physician available here and she reached out to me to see if I would be, if I interested in, I mean my, my family. I'm originally from Oklahoma. My family is still in Oklahoma and so I was living in Oregon at the time and I don't know, it just the timing felt right and, and I wanted to be closer to family and I had also heard about the Riordan Clinic and, and, and you know, knew about its history and it just seemed like a really excellent opportunity and, and to work with Dr. West again. Like she was, yeah, she was the Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:16:49]: first person I thought of and I was like, this is a long shot. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get Oregon to come to Kansas. And then she's like, well, you know, Drew Rose, DO [00:16:57]: it's interesting how Riordan Clinic does this because I hear a lot of similarities between your stories and mine. I joke because it's all started January of 2025 for me before I was offered the position in May. But it was literally like the universe beating me over the head with a newspaper saying this is what you need to do. It's checking all the boxes and it's just got this gravitational pull, you know. I'm born and raised Wichita. I never thought I'd live here again even though I was in Kansas. But it's just, it's like, okay, let's just take a leap of faith and then you're here and it just, everything feels right. So that's awesome that you guys had similar experiences. Riordan Clinic [00:17:35]: Are you looking for a delicious way to boost your immune system? Meet sufficiency. The crave worthy immune support drink that makes staying healthy a treat, not a chore. Packed with 4000mg of non GMO vitamin C. 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He was a respiratory therapist from the 80s 90s and then we got into pharmaceuticals which provided well for our family. I will say that the 90s also being a pharmaceutical rep in the 90s was a heyday. But he was a respiratory therapist and had deep ties to Wichita State, his alma mater, my alma mater as well. And he actually met Hugh Riordan there who was on a committee or some board or something that they both were involved in. And just because Dr. Riordan was who he was, certain people just kind of stayed away from him. Which obviously made my dad curious. So he actually got to know Dr. Riordan. So growing up I knew there was a lot of things about nutrition. I remember seeing the food pyramid painted on the pyramid out here, but I still always had that little kid in me saying like they're doing science experiments, you know. So until I actually came out for my site visit when I was offered this position, I never really was able to connect all the dots. So Riordan Clinic has a very strong history of nutritional medicine and looking at lifestyle and then bringing in the integrative oncology has been a staple. It has been a staple ever since they started this and I say they because it wasn't me. But you two. Being the integrative oncologist that we have here. What are some things you would want our co learners to know before they come into an appointment with you, whether it be virtually or in person. Dr. Dunn, how about you feel this one first? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:20:15]: Sure. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:20:17]: I think it's important to know that everyone's journey is different and that your experience isn't going to be the same as the next person and that we're here to meet you wherever you are in that process and and support you, individually, I mean, you're, You're. We look at, you know, the whole. The whole picture. And so I would just want people to know that it's not. It's not like a cookie cutter approach. Like, it really is individualized. And I don't mean, like individualized like, I don't know, just all the therapies, but it's individualized because we get to know the patients and know, like, you know, what, not just, you know, oh, you're going to get IV vitamin C, and that's going to be titrated specifically to you. But we know that it's. The sleep for you is particularly crucial. The relationship with, you know, your mother or whatever it may be, you know, there really is playing a role in your health. And so that's what I want people to know, that it's. That it's. It's very individualized. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:21:25]: Yeah, Dr. West, 1,000%. I think also that we're a team. When you come on site, you get the Riordan team. Drew Rose, DO [00:21:33]: Yes. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:21:34]: And I love, like, being. I see a patient and you guys know, we message each other, we have questions, we message each other, we collaborate. It is individualized as far as, like, meeting the patient where they're at. Every person's different. Every disease is different. The nutrient testing is absolutely phenomenal. It really helps us to look under the hood and see what that patient. What that patient needs. So. Drew Rose, DO [00:21:57]: Yeah, absolutely. Now, you mentioned earlier, Dr. West, root cause and, like, root cause analysis. Like, what does that mean to you? Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:22:05]: I always come back to the terrain. Drew Rose, DO [00:22:07]: Okay. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:22:08]: I think that the terrain is the best way to really. And there comes that root analogy, too. Like terrain. You think of soil, you think of this is the body, and I think of disease as like a weed or a root or something that is inhabiting that soil. And. And it's either good or bad. And so if we have disease or we have cancer, we need to figure out what we're doing to figure out the cause of why that happened. How do we need to change or cultivate the terrain to make it inhospitable to that disease or that cancer? When I say cancer, but when we're working on cancer, we're really working on all diseases because we're working on the whole person. So I think that that's. And it's not just. It's that we call it root cause, but it's typically root causes more than one thing. Drew Rose, DO [00:22:56]: Yeah. Dr. Donna, you want to add anything about root cause or what that means to you? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:23:01]: No, I agree. I mean, it's it's multifactorial. I mean, it is important to dig and look and see, you know, what, what is contributing. But it's. It's, you know, rarely one specific, you know, thing that, that caused the cancer. I mean, even when we think of like, smoking and lung cancer, kidney cancer, pancreatic cancer, you know, like, yeah, obviously smoking can cause those cancers, but not everyone that smokes gets right, you know, a cancer. And so it's figuring out, you know, all the other things, the, you know, the, the metabolic imbalances and the, you know, and all the immune imbalances and things like that that are also playing into that. Drew Rose, DO [00:23:41]: So, yeah, the root cause analysis idea. Um, so, like, so many people, I was on social media not that long ago, and there was a man, I can't remember his specialty, but md, and he was kind of going off about how root cause analysis is just fancy terminology for what every doctor does. And, like, I kind of understand his point of. But it's like the idea of what every doctor should do. Right. But it's not what's truly done when you specialize so far out and then you work in silos, as we like to talk about, like, you can't look at everything else. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:24:15]: Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:24:16]: So I think that. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:24:17]: That generally they're thinking like, root cause meaning, like, oh, your blood pressure caused this. You know, like, not like, figuring out what really, like, what caused the elevation in blood pressure to begin with. Like, like, look really looking deeper. Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:24:32]: Yeah. Drew Rose, DO [00:24:33]: And that's just one of my pet peeves about when you go online and I mean, so much information is at our fingertips. Right. And then you add social media into it and then all the misinformation and anybody can go online and make a claim. Right. They can use their platform, how many followers they have, and say that. Actually, I posted something the other day and Stacy, I know that you liked it, but it was something about how somebody goes online and they say, as an internal medicine doctor, I never eat these three things. And it's like, okay, that's not really how that works though. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:25:02]: Right. Drew Rose, DO [00:25:03]: So, like, what are some of your pet peeves that you see out there, whether it be social media or trends that you see with co learners coming in and doing certain things, you know, like, whoa, hold up. Let's try something different. What are some of your pet peeves, Kirsten? I'm going to go ask you first. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:25:17]: I think it's that one size fits all. I mean, there's so many people that get on there and they're like, if you do what I'm doing, you're going to look like me, you're going to feel like me. You just like that. The food thing, you eat these three, these are three foods I avoid. You're going to be fine. Drew Rose, DO [00:25:30]: Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:25:30]: And it's just like, it's. And we as a, as a species, I always think about this. We want that quick fix and we want to be able to define things like that we want to do. I want to be like, it's that simple. Great. I'm good. And it really isn't so. And social media does that disservice. Drew Rose, DO [00:25:47]: It feeds into that, unfortunately. Yes, absolutely. Stacy, what about you? What's some pet peeves of yours? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:25:52]: Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and I also think, like, learning who's actually talking to you, because there's so many people that are giving health advice that literally have like, not even a degree of any sort. And so, and even when physicians, especially when it comes to oncology, are, you know, talking about certain, you know, alternative treatments for, for cancer, oftentimes these are our physicians that have not even treated a cancer patient. You know, they're just, they've just created this platform of information and they believe, they probably believe in what they're saying, but they've never actually treated the patient using, you know, what they're promoting. And, and, you know, and it's different when you're in the field. It's different when you're working with, you know, patients for 20 plus years and, and you see what works that doesn't work. And you, you know, that, you know, as Dr. West said, it needs to be individualized that the same thing that works for one person's not going to work for the next. But it's just, it's, it's frustrating when people are talking about things that they really don't have experience in. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:27:01]: Well, and one thing that I think Dr. Dunn and I have both, gosh, this has been a pet peeve. I think we really learned this in our training. But, you know, those, the cell studies, you'll get somebody to come on and say, well, this kills cancer. And it's based on a cell study, but someone's using a platform to say that they don't have a medical degree. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:27:19]: Right. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:27:20]: And there is so much more nuance than from a petri dish to an actual human being. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:27:25]: Oh, my goodness, there's so many things will kill cancer. Yes, they could grow vice versa. Can't ever eat that. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:27:31]: You can't do this. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:27:32]: It makes cancer grow. And I'm like yeah, in a petri dish. I mean most anything. Drew Rose, DO [00:27:36]: Well, yeah, yeah, I love that it was. Hit a hot button for both of you. That's exactly what I wanted with this question. So talk a little bit more about those, like the different studies. Like how do you, you navigate what is information? Like truly scientifically based research and true information and misinformation. How do you navigate that and know what is real and what is fake and then how do you help the co learners navigate that? You're not going to tell them, look at the P value. Right? It's. Yeah, like I, I know what it is but I still don't remember exactly what the value is. There's a five in there somewhere. But how do you navigate that? Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:28:14]: Yeah, I mean I think we probably both spend a lot of time on PubMed and we probably, you know, and I think it's also just balanced with experience and you know, that clinical experience and, and you know, because some things, not everything is as well studied as we would like. You know, there are things that we've had experience seeing that, you know, we know this works to bring down inflammation even though there aren't, you know, however many controlled trials showing that, you know, there, so there is some sort of, of, you know, clinical art to that as well. But yeah, I mean I think we, we do our best to, to, to look up research and then. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:28:53]: Yeah, well, I'm like, I, I think one of the things is like we talked about, look at who it's coming from, where does it come from? Yeah, is the study, look at the study, was it done in, first of all, was it a cell study? You can, you usually can tell that even if you're not really science based, you can look at something and say, well, was it done in cells? Was it done in animals, Was it done in people? Good idea. And then for us, I mean this is the practice of medicine. They don't call that by mistake. It is doing this for years and seeing what works and what doesn't. Drew Rose, DO [00:29:27]: Thank you. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:29:28]: Yeah. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:29:29]: Our collaboration together, utilizing the networks that we have is also. So I think when in doubt, ask a doctor who has the training and knows what they're talking about. But that's one way that if you're looking online, those are some ways to. Drew Rose, DO [00:29:44]: And I always tell people, don't just read the headline, read the actual article. Don't read the conclusion either. Like you want to see the methods, you want to see like how things were done. Don't get trained on just reading a headline and reacting like get trained on. Oh, that's interesting. There's the hook. Now read the rest of the article. It doesn't take that much time, so. And it really is a lot of common sense, like you said, Dr. West, is you'll know if it's a cell study, an animal study, a human trial, and that in and of itself can kind of give you more confidence in whether or not the information is true or if they are taking things out of context. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:30:20]: Yeah. So, and then, and, and like Dr. Dunn said, even though we don't have studies on some things, we've seen them work. So as long as something's not going to hurt somebody or interfere with what they're doing, it might be worth trying. Drew Rose, DO [00:30:34]: Yes. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:30:35]: But again, you need guidance. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:30:37]: Yeah. Drew Rose, DO [00:30:37]: Well, we are coming up towards the end of this podcast, our very first roundtable. But I want to ask one last question, just to kind of leave with the viewers, the listeners here. What is something you do personally for your own health that might surprise or shock people? I'm going to start with. Let's start with Dr. Dunn. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:31:00]: Gosh, I don't think I do anything shopping. I mean I go to bed at like 8:30, so I think that that's usually when I share that with patients, they're, they're shocked. But that's because I get up at 5:30 to work out and if I not go to bed at 8:30, then I will not get up at 5:30. And if I don't get up at 5:30, then my whole day is just shot. Drew Rose, DO [00:31:25]: Yeah, yeah. Like exercise routine. Exercise science. Hello. It's coming. It's pervasive. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:31:31]: Yeah. Yes, yes. Drew Rose, DO [00:31:33]: Sleep hygiene is also incredible. So, yes, yes. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:31:36]: Walking the talk. Right. Fun fact about Dr. Dunn and I to tag onto that is we both like early dinners. Yes, we are early dinner people. Drew Rose, DO [00:31:46]: I found that out last night. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:31:47]: Reservation at 6:30. Drew Rose, DO [00:31:49]: Yeah, yeah. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:31:50]: Or earlier. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:31:51]: Yes. So, yeah. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:31:56]: And Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:31:58]: I was trying to think about this earlier. I. I've been doing hypnosis lately. Not like I don't do hypnosis on other people, but I've actually, at the end of the day been listening to hypnosis for certain. And I noticed and I never, of all people, I was like, I'm not they. I cannot be hypnotized. And I go into this space that I've never been to. It's very interesting. Drew Rose, DO [00:32:19]: You know, that's very serendipitous that you say that because yesterday I was actually down in the library, which is below Dome two, and I was looking at the shelf after shelf after shelf of all of these journals that are. Have been around, and I was, like, trying to find, like, the. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:32:36]: The. Drew Rose, DO [00:32:37]: The oldest one there, and I found some from 1960, and it goes all the way through multiple decades, and it's some journal of hypnosis. Now, we. We know that Dr. Riordan was a psychiatrist, right? But going all the way back to 1960 and going all the way through the 80s, and it's this specific journal, and I can't remember exactly the name of it, but it was all about hypnosis. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:32:57]: That's so cool. Drew Rose, DO [00:32:58]: So very serendipitous that you say that Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:33:01]: is a gold mine. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:33:02]: It is. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:33:02]: Oh, yeah, yeah. Drew Rose, DO [00:33:03]: There's so much down there. So. Wow. Um, one thing that I do, I was actually trying to think about this because I wrote the question and I'm like, what do I do? And I don't. I'm. I'm. I'm with you, Stacy. Like, I kind of. I'm kind of boring. Like, I try to stay boring. Right. But I will mention a couple things here. Some people talk about the beads that I wear on my arm, right? So it's kind of hard to see, But I took them off because they get picked up on the mic pretty darn easy. But I use them on my left arm, and they were. They are mala beads that were gifted to me by a mentor in medical school. We went to a place called Tibet Imports in Denver. I think it's on 6th Street, FYI, if you want to go see it. And there's a woman there that will read your astrological, Vedic, whole Vedic astrological chart, that is. And based off of, I don't know what. She decides what color you need. Now, I am not Hindu, Buddhist, or. I mean, I was raised Baptist, right? So if you're going to categorize me as anything, it still come from the Christian belief. But these beads, what they do for me, I've always struggled with meditation. I've always struggled with quieting the mind. And I very much get worked up. I can work myself up, even just with stress and things. And what I found in medical school when I was gifted. These. These are not my first set either. I wear these every single day as a mindfulness thing to remind me to slow down. And it's kind of a fidget thing. It's kind of also where I can take them off and go one beat at a time just to slow time down for me. So it's. I really think, being able to slow life down a little bit and give yourself some time to think to be still. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:34:45]: Yeah. Drew Rose, DO [00:34:46]: Is undervalued these days in the society. Stacy Dunn, ND, LAc, FABNO, FABORM [00:34:50]: Absolutely. I love that. Kirsten West, ND, LAc, FABNO [00:34:52]: Me too. Drew Rose, DO [00:34:52]: Well, ladies, any last words before we wrap up? You know, okay. To everyone watching this, everyone listening to this, I am Dr. Drew. Thank you so much. Dr. Dunn and Dr. West. We are going to have more of these. This is going to be a recurring thing every month. It's a Riordan Roundtable. This is the introductory one. We hope to get, dive into some more topics, whether they're controversial, whether they're boring, whether they're things that need to be more educational. We're open to it. So if you guys have any questions or if you gals want some topics discussed, please let us know. But until next time, this has been the Real Health Podcast, Riordan Roundtable. Thank you. Riordan Clinic [00:35:33]: Thank you for listening to the Real Health Podcast. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episodes and show notes over realhealthpodcast.com also be sure to visit riordanclinic.org where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of Real Health.