Riordan Clinic [00:00:00]: Hello and welcome to the Real Health Podcast. Today might sound a little bit different because I want to tell you about our Cancer Care Reimagined Speaker Series. When we began planning our 25th International Conference on Human Functioning, Dr. Ron Hunninghake sat down and created his dream team of speakers. We reached out to them and much to our delight, they all said yes. Now our speakers are leaders in integrative oncology, functional medicine, and research who are truly shaping the future of cancer care. Each week leading up to the conference, we will feature one of these extraordinary experts right here on the Real Health Podcast. They will be sharing insights, innovation, and inspiration to help you reimagine what's possible in cancer care. This series and the upcoming conference would not be possible without the generous support of our presenting sponsor, Empower Pharmacy. Empower Pharmacy is the most advanced compounding pharmacy in the nation, licensed to serve in all 50 states. They are deeply committed to improving access to high-quality, affordable and personalized medications for the patients, providers, and caregivers who rely on them. Their belief is simple but powerful. Behind every order is a person in need. And with that knowledge, they approach everything they do with compassion, innovation, and a drive for excellence. We are so grateful for their partnership and their support of this important conversation around reimagining cancer care. Tickets are on sale now for the conference cancercarereimagined.org we hope you will join us in Wichita this November for this unforgettable event. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:01:26]: Well, welcome everyone to another wonderful episode of the Real Health podcast. Here at the Riordan Clinic, I'm Dr. Ron Hunninghake. And as my guest today, as she was In January of 2024, Dr. Michelle Niesley. We had just introduced you, Michelle, as our new director of the science department here at, Research department, here at Riordan Clinic. And now you've become our CEO, Right? BINGO. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:01:52]: Yeah. Was not on my BINGO card for. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:01:54]: This year anyway, so I thought we would may maybe fill in our audience in terms of what's gone on and a little bit of background of you. Maybe a little bit more background. We've maybe. And maybe we ought to refresh the audience. You're a. You're a naturopathic oncologist. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:02:11]: Yeah, so I am a naturopathic doctor specializing in integrative oncology. Yeah. I graduated from Bastyr University in Seattle in 2001 and completed a residency at Cancer Treatment Centers of America outside of Chicago and then decided I needed more student debt and so went on to Dartmouth and got a master's in biostatistics and epidemiology at their program there. So I've had an opportunity to direct clinical trials units. I've been primary care in Alaska. I worked at the integrative Medicine Center associated with Northwestern University in Chicago, and then owned my own clinic in Eugene, Oregon, starting in 2016. Early 2016. Yeah. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:02:56]: Yeah. I kind of feel like you were destined to come here because, you know, the Riordan Clinic, it's been a. In a leadership role in not only integrative medicine, but holistic medicine. When I first came here, that's what it was. It was holistic, orthomolecular, all kinds of different things that really opened my mind as a conventional family physician. I started to see that there was a dimension of care that we were not giving to patients that Dr. Riordan discovered as integral to helping patients get over complex chronic illness. Because it's one thing to come in with a cold or a heart attack or whatever, but when you've got fatigue and you've got infection and you've got heavy metal toxicity, how in the world do you put that all together? And I guess the naturopathic background is what really brings this all forward. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:03:53]: Well, it was really something that was really interesting to me. I was looking at regular medical schools and met a class, a classmate of mine, a collegiate classmate of mine on the street in Portland, who happened to be going to naturopathic school and invited me to student for a day. So you got to see the classes and hear some cases. And the thing that really struck me about naturopathic medical school is you can have a diagnosis, but it doesn't tell you why. And so, you know, one of the cases that we heard was about someone who had chronic sinusitis. Right. And had. Had surgeries and antibiotic use. And as the student had worked with them, they found out that that patient had a. Had a milk sensitivity, a dairy sensitivity, and they had traded in their cup of coffee from home every day to, you know, getting Starbucks that had opened up three years ago in their building. And that's when all of these issues started. I really liked the individualization and really figuring out the right answer for that particular patient, not necessarily the right answer for that diagnosis. So it's hard. I mean, the diagnosis tells you the symptoms, but it doesn't tell you why. And I think why is the really important question to ask. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:05:10]: Yeah. And as. As the whole concept of terrain comes into cancer care, and really, naturopathic oncologists introduce that concept that you can't just think of the cancer you have to look at how has this affected, how is the digestive system, the gut microbiome, how is that, how has your past experience, traumatic experiences, does that play into the cancer? So there's like 10 terrains that you can look at. Riordan Clinic [00:05:40]: There are. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:05:40]: And when I'm talking about it, and this is not my analogy, it is out there, but talking about cancer as a weed or as a, as a plant of some sort. Right. And when you talk about that weed, it's growing in soil. And so standard oncology is really focused on getting rid of the weed. Right. They want to get rid of the weed. They can cut it out. They can use chemicals, chemotherapy, immunotherapy, targeted therapies, they can use radiation therapy. But conventional oncology really doesn't focus on the soil. And so for me, again, I can have two patients with, on paper, the identical diagnosis of breast cancer. They receive the same conventional treatment. But when they come to me, if one has heavy metals and one has evidence of mold toxicity, even though on paper they're a very similar patients, they're going to get really different plans from me. So it's really about individualizing. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:06:29]: Yeah. So let's carry that into the business of the Riordan Clinic. So, so we have a kind of a diverse terrain here because we're dealing with patients in a whole different way than conventional doctors do. The patient comes in, they've got their disease, they've got their symptoms. The doctor does lab tests, takes an intake and comes up with a diagnosis. And here's your treatment. Boom. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:06:53]: Right? Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:06:53]: What's different here at the Riordan Clinic? And what was it that attracted you and what was it that attracted me to make you the, the director here? Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:07:02]: Well, so I would say in my time as research director, you know, Riordan is, is internationally known for so many different things, but obviously, obviously intravenous vitamins. Right. And where Dr. Riordan began and really pushing that research, really establishing ourselves as research based and also really emphasizing the relationship with the patient as the co-learner and not being the doctor who's dictating, but really working in partnership with our co-learners is just so important. And so it was, you know, Riordan has always had a wonderful reputation and so that attracted me to get this opportunity to work with a clinic that is internationally renowned. And then as I came to Riordan, I got called into more and more meetings about, you know, our patient pathways and potential survivorship programs and different, different offerings that we are currently looking at right now. And it was just really interesting having been there in the day to day clinic basis and then being able to look at it from a business perspective too, it just, it was an opportunity I couldn't refuse. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:08:11]: Yeah, yeah. And so also you, when you jumped in, we are, I think most of the people that are listeners may have heard that we're going to be having the 25th International Conference on Human Functioning. So Dr. Riordan was passionate about the education part of this. That as. As physicians who are looking for a broader understanding of what are the underlying causes of chronic illness. He invited people from all over the world for 17 international conferences while he was alive and we've had another seven since. Since his passing. And now this will be our 25th international conference on Human Functioning Cancer Care Reimagined. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:08:52]: It is. I'm going to give you all a little side story too, really quickly. So Dr. Ron, when we, it is our 50th anniversary of the Clinic 25th International Conference. And so when we were planning this conference, we asked Dr. Ron to name his list of people that, you know, speakers that he thought would be appropriate for this conference and would represent the material really well. And often when you're planning a conference, you'll have some speakers that have conflicts or can't speak. For a variety of reasons, literally every single speaker jumped at the opportunity to speak. And so thank you to Dr. Ron and your, you know, over 30 years of, you know, being at the Riordan Clinic and really establishing those relationships and connections for Cancer Care Reimagined. I mean, we've got a wonderful lineup of. I mean there's everyone from Naysha Winters to Paul Anderson, Dan Rubin, Dr. Bagley. You know, we, India. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:45]: We're having. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:09:46]: India. Manicomacom is coming from India. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:09:49]: England. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:09:49]: Yes. Mark Lintern. Yes, yes. So Lisa Alschuler is coming. I mean we've got just a whole host of wonderful speakers. And I think that the goal of the conference really is to acknowledge where we've been as far as integrative cancer care is concerned. It's changed a lot in my 24, almost 25 years in integrative medicine. So it's changed a lot. And acknowledging what those changes and what those breakthroughs have been, but really charting an innovative course forward. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:10:18]: Yeah. And you and I will be kicking off the conference. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:10:21]: We will be. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:10:22]: We're going to be talking about how important we. It is for us to understand how the brain plays into this. Because what we now know is that most of modern medicine as, as we currently understand it is a left brain phenomenon, which of course we need the left Brain focuses in, on the specifics and thank God we have the knowledge that we have. But on the other side of the hemispheric world is the right brain, which is holistic. Looking at the big picture, and sometimes that's gotten lost in the whole development of medicine, Western medicine. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:10:58]: It has. And I think one of the things you and I have been discussing also is the corpus callosum and how it connects the two sides. But it also sends not all the information necessarily. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:11:10]: No, we have to really develop our core corpus callosums because there's been a, a divide, a real divide between conventional and holistic alternative medicine. And it's. But it's been growing. Functional medicine has definitely made great strides. And now with integrative medicine, this is the corpus callosum. This is where we're going to bring this out at this conference, that if we're going to reimagine cancer care, we've got to get the two sides of the brain working together and getting people to understand that cancer, yes, it's a specific disease, a tumor that grows in your body. But this is getting back to the terrain. Unless you take into consideration terrain, you're not really treating the whole person. And we're not going to get as good a results as we could get. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:11:56]: Correct. And you're setting the patient potentially up not only for reoccurrence of cancer, but maybe, maybe if the cancer doesn't come back, are they getting set up for autoimmune diseases or cardiovascular disease or dementia or other ways that again, if that soil isn't healthy, for lack of a better metaphor, if that soil isn't healthy, is that going to lead to other complex chronic illnesses down the road? Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:12:17]: Yeah. And so this, to me represents the new. This is actually. You're. You, you are really a third generation Riordan Clinic. You represent that. We have a number of young doctors and integrative oncologists on staff here and, and people who are enthusiastic, enthusiastic about bringing about this. What we've kind of been building up to this innovation of the care of cancer patients. Because now we've got a kind of an epidemic going on. We've got all these young people getting cancer. We've got. The numbers are continuing to grow. The world we live in is more toxic than it's ever been. Radio waves and glyphosate, you name it. And so this type of specialty, I think is calling us. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:13:01]: Yeah. And it's, it's really been something I've seen over the past 25 years, is that we Used to kind of be the. On the outskirts. And I think we really have seen integrative medicine not only infiltrate actually academic medical centers that have, you know, integrative medicine centers there. We're actually within the NCCN guidelines now, which are part of the guidelines that oncologists follow in order to not only give treatment, but then also how to reduce side effects. So integrative medicine is represented there. There's hundreds of thousands of publications on integrative medicine and oncology, going from herbs to different types of diets to exercise to nutrition. So all of those things that we can do to support the patient. So we've become more mainstream, but we still have a long way to go. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:13:51]: Yeah. No, what I've really been impressed with you about is that you are very articulate and that you're willing to reach out, because I think it's, you know, there's been a tendency. And at least in me, you know, we kind of, let's do our. Our little holistic medicine over here, and hopefully we don't rock the. Rock the, the. The carriage or whatever. But I think we're at a stage now where we need to stand up and let people know what's going on in the world is really serious. I mean, our United States is not that. We're fairly low in the category of nations in terms of our health care system. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:14:28]: Yeah. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:14:28]: We need to rejuvenate it and revitalize it. And I think this is one way to do it, to bring in whole. Whole brain medicine. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:14:35]: Right. Whole brain medicine. And I really also, you know, part of the reason I went to Dartmouth was so that I could speak the language of statistics. So when I was going to ASCO and other conferences where we were looking at all these different statistical, you know, different curves and graphs and everything, that I could speak the language just as well as my, you know, conventional colleagues could. And to me, communication with people, with providers of all types, conventional providers, integrative providers. Really what you're doing is building that bridge and not having the patient be stuck in the middle trying to follow. Do I follow the integrative recommendations? Is my oncologist going to be okay with that? I mean, I really think so many things in life are about communication, experience, education. Right. And once you learn more about something, it's not so scary. Once you can get the papers in front of, you know, conventional oncologists, often there will be a recognition that there really is a significant place for this integrative approach. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:15:33]: Yeah. And it really does empower the patient, very often the cancer patient's overwhelmed. They, they of course want to do the right thing, but they, they don't know really what their role in it. Because in the past the patient has been kind of like the object of therapy. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:15:52]: Correct. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:15:53]: And we want the subject back in there. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:15:55]: Right. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:15:55]: And Dr. Riordan recognized that with the term co-learner. So our patients here are co-learners. They're actively involved in this. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:16:02]: Yes. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:16:03]: And I think what, what, what happens when you get people, doctors like yourself that have the, the strong nutritional understanding, the ecological understanding, the whole person understanding, the patient then feels emboldened and I think it actually helps their immune system and their outcomes are going to be better just by that fact alone. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:16:26]: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, there's a lot of information on how stress reduction can positively impact the immune system. And I think it's really what we are trying to do is provide them with that information so they can feel, so they can do something about what is happening. I mean, with chemotherapy, conventional therapies, a lot of times patients feel like things are being done to them. They're having surgery or they're being. Chemotherapy is being administered. But like you were saying, how can I go ahead and empower myself to take the steps that I need? I often talk to my patients about, you know, this visit is not a monologue, it's a dialogue. Right. So the things that you tell me are going to better inform the recommendations that I'm going to make. I truly believe that most patients, if you listen to their story, that they will tell you exactly what it is that they need. Yeah. So. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:17:17]: Well, I've really enjoyed my 34 years at the Riordan Clinic and I'm not leaving. I am, I'm basically going to be cutting back a little bit as time goes on, but I really feel like putting, putting the clinic in your able hands and all the wonderful staff that we have here. And also just the world is kind of saying, okay, we're ready now. Let's have more of a part in our own healthcare. And I think if the people that take a look at the Riordan Clinic, you'll see that we're moving into that big time. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:17:47]: We are, we're really looking at innovative ways to support our patients between visits and making sure that they are well cared for. I mean, it's easy to give somebody a list of things to, to do at this appointment today and not see them for 30 days. Well, what happens over those 30 days? So I think that's something also when you talk about communication and support it's something that conventional medicine, to a certain degree, is lacking. You usually get the care from your physician when you're in front of them and not necessarily until the next appointment. And so laying that foundation for really building a community movement is the direction that we're headed. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:18:25]: Yeah. So the three pillars that Riordan built, this. This facility, on the whole. The whole concept was. Was innovation, patient care, and research. And so you kind of have a little bit of all of that in your background, in your pedigree, so to speak. And so that's why I was excited that you accepted. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:18:49]: Honored. Like I said, it was not. It was not anticipated, but when the opportunity came, it just. Right now just feels like it's the right time to, you know, to be able to help Riordan get to the next level. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:19:01]: So we also want to make sure that everyone out there understands that the conference is open. You know, all of the Riordan conferences over the years have been available, so it's not just for doctors. So if people as. As colon owners want to come, they're more than welcome to attend the conference. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:18]: Correct. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:19:18]: And it will be available both in person and online as well. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:22]: That is correct. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:19:23]: So that's coming up November 7th and 8th. 7th and 8th, yeah. And it'll be at Wichita State. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:28]: That's correct. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:19:29]: Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you again for accepting the job and for being so enthusiastic and outgoing and. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:36]: Yeah. Ron Hunninghake, MD [00:19:36]: And I'm. I'm here to support you. Michelle Niesley, ND, MS, FABNO [00:19:37]: 100 wonderful. I'm. I'm thrilled. I couldn't be more excited. So thank you. Riordan Clinic [00:19:42]: Thank you for listening to the Real Health Podcast. This episode was brought to you by Empower Pharmacy, the most advanced compounding pharmacy and 503B outsourcing facility in the nation. Licensed in all 50 states, Empower is committed to improving access to safe, affordable, and personalized medications for patients, providers, and caregivers. Learn more at empowerpharmacy.com. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episode and show notes over at realhealthpodcast.org also be sure to visit riordanclinic.org where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of Real Health.