00:00:02:21 - 00:00:17:08 Narrator This is the Real Health Podcast brought to you by Riordan Clinic. Our mission is to bring you the latest information and top experts in functional and integrative medicine to help you make informed decisions on your path to real health. 00:00:17:10 - 00:00:45:15 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Welcome, everyone. This is Doctor Ron Hunninghake, and we're having another Real health podcast here from the Riordan Clinic. And it truly is an honor for me today to introduce our guest, our, doctor, Mark Linton. He's a scientist from, England, British scientist. And I, I'm thrilled about the fact that Mark has come out with a book called The Cancer Resolution. 00:00:45:21 - 00:01:16:02 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And, Mark has, had personal experience with cancer. He, a very good friend of his wife, died of cancer. And I, if I understand the story correct. Mark, is that you were motivated as a scientist to try to answer the question why, in the last 50 years, for all the money that's been spent on trying to look for the basic cause of cancer, that nothing substantial has, no substantial progress has been made there. 00:01:16:02 - 00:01:56:09 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD I think some people say that life has it been extend it in terms of maybe 1 to 2 months at best, but otherwise we still are struggling and are very fearful of cancer. And so oftentimes what we fear is the unknown. And so, today you and I will try to help our audience understand that there is a fundamental cause of cancer, that we can begin to make changes in our lifestyle to help us, help us get on top of this, this, this horrible, plague that is, is, is plaguing humanity. 00:01:56:09 - 00:02:00:06 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD So once again, thank you very much for coming on this show. 00:02:00:08 - 00:02:20:16 Mark Lintern Thank you very much for having me on. It's wonderful to be here. I do often think, having done the research that I have, that sometimes we make things more complicated than they actually need to be. I know there is complexity in the world, but, I think sometimes we through fear, potentially, see things as is far worse than they actually are. 00:02:20:16 - 00:02:33:16 Mark Lintern And hopefully today I can sort of elucidate, some mechanisms that kind of highlight the it's possibly not as fearful as it needs to be. And maybe there's a different lens through which we can view cancer. 00:02:33:18 - 00:03:02:22 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Very good. So part of what you've done that I, I, highly admire is that there are what's called the hallmarks of cancer. And up until this point, modern oncology has only been able to explain about two of them. And in your, detailed research, you were able to find that this explanation of cancer, the fungal link to cancer, actually explains all ten and another. 00:03:02:22 - 00:03:17:00 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD What 20 more explanations for what actually causes cancer? Can you kind of give our audience a sense of what that's about, and why this is such an important discovery? 00:03:17:02 - 00:03:37:14 Mark Lintern Yeah, fundamentally, when I first came to my research, I actually believe that cancer was a genetic disease, as everyone, I suppose does, because that's the, the narrative provided by the mainstream. And when that fell apart through the research, I, came across a number of, contentions. I began to become aware of the other theories that were available. 00:03:37:14 - 00:04:14:11 Mark Lintern And then I, I got in contact with Professor Siegfried. And one of the things he pointed out was a real key feature to try and determine, which theories are more accurate. Because this is important because theories determine or from treatments are developed from cancer theory. So if you're a patient wanting to know which treatment to potentially utilize, you want to be looking at which theory is potentially the most accurate, because that's going to be the theory that provides or offers treatments that are most likely to be more effective because they're actually targeting something, specific to the cancer. 00:04:14:13 - 00:04:42:14 Mark Lintern So he mentioned in this process of trying to determine which, theories are more accurate, the hallmarks of cancer, which I wasn't aware of initially. And these are a set of essentially hallmarks that define, key characteristics shared by all solid cancers. So for instance, uncontrolled growth or growth signal failure, cell death failure, limitless growth, blood vessel growth. 00:04:42:16 - 00:05:13:19 Mark Lintern So these things, these these are aspects of the disease that need to be explained by any particular theory. And the more of these hallmarks that can be explained, can denote how accurate the theory is. So that's, that's the aim of, of most cancer theories is to explain all these hallmarks. If you've identified something specific to the cancer cell and, it's it's true that that specific mechanism is involved in all cancers, then there should be you should be able to explain most of these hallmarks. 00:05:13:19 - 00:05:43:22 Mark Lintern If you are unable to explain most of the hallmarks, then you there's an issue with the fundamental origin you believe. All that theory believes is the underlying cause of the disease, because it should be able to explain all these aspects. So what I then did as I went through my research, I realized how important the hallmarks were, to explaining the disease and also to explaining the, credibility or the validity of any particular theory. 00:05:43:24 - 00:06:15:16 Mark Lintern And as I developed my own theory, when I realized there were contentions with a number of other theories, such as the metabolic theory as well, which I hold in high esteem, by the way, I realize I had to explain all these hallmarks. And so I went for the process of attempting to explain them. During that, the eight years of research I undertook, I noticed there was at least another 20, features of the disease, not necessarily officially recognized hallmarks yet, but features of the disease such as iron overload and how that's involved with cancer. 00:06:15:18 - 00:06:48:00 Mark Lintern These also needed to be explained, but they weren't explained necessarily by the other theories. So if I was going to have any credibility with my theory, not only would I need to explain the ten hallmarks officially recognized, but the other 20 that I, I came across in my research and I've done I've done that over the period of this eight years, which kind of suggests that, I've identified a specific mechanism that hasn't been, recognized as yet and needs, looking into that potentially can, is facilitating the disease. 00:06:48:00 - 00:06:54:04 Mark Lintern And if we targeted can offer, potential for, treatment. 00:06:54:06 - 00:07:25:23 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Well, and and our, our patients and not just our patients, but all cancer patients when they're first diagnosed, I think the in addition to the fear and the bill bewilderment, there's just this sense of helplessness, because when we look at oncology as it's practiced conventionally, it, it basically states that it's a genetic cause and that mutations occur and patients are looking and say, what did what did I do? 00:07:25:23 - 00:07:55:11 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD What did I do to cause this mutation? And now what can I do now that the mutations in me and the cancer's growing? So this sense of helplessness and bewilderment is very pervasive in, in cancer cancer patients. And so how does your theory kind of open the door to an understanding how patients can make changes in their lives in such a way? 00:07:55:13 - 00:08:02:05 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD They can begin to get to the root causes of cancer. 00:08:02:07 - 00:08:22:08 Mark Lintern Well, I came across this problem, as always, do my research. Initially. It's that fear, isn't it, that you're provided with by the fact that the mainstream theories, are stating that, cancer is a cell malfunction disease. So in that you have genetic mutations and they can be completely random, and there's nothing really much you can do about it cause it's bad. 00:08:22:08 - 00:08:49:23 Mark Lintern Look, if you get those mutations, that's what we're told. And that's where the fear comes from, because you feel like it doesn't matter what kind of lifestyle I live, I'm going to get it no matter what, and there's nothing I can do about it. The paradigm I'm putting forward is completely different in the sense that when you look at the other theories, including the metabolic theory, the atavistic theory, the tissue organization field theory, the somatic mutation theory, they all they're all kind of based on the notion that the cell malfunctions. 00:08:49:23 - 00:09:12:17 Mark Lintern So damage happens to the cell, that changes the behavior of the cell to the extent that it's either developed a mind of its own or it just can't perform the normal mechanisms of control it would normally perform, and that then generates cancer. I'm saying that actually, cancer is not a cell malfunction disease. It's a cell suppression based disease. 00:09:12:19 - 00:09:40:20 Mark Lintern And our cells are not acting against us. They haven't become evil. They're not turning against us. They're actually trying their best to help us. Now, when I say a cell suppression disease, what I the basis of my theory is that intracellular fungal pathogens in particular. But there are other pathogens involved. Intracellular fungal pathogens essentially drive the Warburg effect in cancer, which is the metabolic theory. 00:09:40:22 - 00:10:10:10 Mark Lintern They drive this shift in, abnormal metabolism. And because the cells are overwhelmed because of the many different, issues with the body, possibly, you know, nutrient deficiencies, toxicities, inflammation, chronic inflammation of the cellular terrain, this facilitates the infectious process and the body's reacting to that infectious process. The Warburg effect this switch in metabolism is an anti infection response. 00:10:10:12 - 00:10:52:06 Mark Lintern And unless the pathogen is removed or eliminated then what you're going to have is this proliferation of cells around, the infection caused by the sustained survival of the pathogen within the tumor. So what I'm saying is the pathogenic pathogen is hijacking key features of the cell, and the cell is responding. And the symptoms of cancer we see is the response and the suppressive, hijacking of certain cellular, pathways, particular metabolic pathways, the fungus, and as well as apoptosis, it suppresses the cell death mechanism in order to survive within the cell. 00:10:52:08 - 00:11:10:06 Mark Lintern So the cell is trying to kill the pathogen, but for whatever reason, for a number of reasons, I go to in my book, it's unable to the immune system is weak as well. So we have a problem with the immune system being able to eliminate the pathogen. And if that pathogen is sustained, we have sustained, Warburg effect. 00:11:10:08 - 00:11:42:15 Mark Lintern And essentially a tumor grows because it's a proliferative state. So essentially what I'm arguing is that, we need to view cancer from a different angle. And that is that if you target the fungal pathogen, and the bacterial pathogens that are also working in cohort, what you'll do is you'll give control of the cell back to the cell itself rather than the pathogen being in control, having hijacked those, mechanisms. 00:11:42:17 - 00:12:13:00 Mark Lintern You kill the pathogen, the cell will either kill itself through the natural process of apoptosis. If damage to the cell has reached a certain threshold that it's damaging to the patient or the host, or the cell will revert back to a state of homeostasis. So my argument is it's cancer is not an evil entity. Our cells haven't, randomly decided to become this new, species within us and trying to grow out of control. 00:12:13:02 - 00:12:30:14 Mark Lintern It's a mechanism for trying to control the infection. And really all we need to do. I say all we need to do is very complex. Fungal pathogens are hard to get rid of, but all we really need to do is try to focus more on killing the pathogen, as well as, looking at the metabolism and the terrain and get rid of toxins and all those things. 00:12:30:14 - 00:12:37:23 Mark Lintern So there's another way of looking at the disease. And this potentially another way of actually dealing with disease. 00:12:38:00 - 00:13:26:09 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yes. And Doctor Riordan who was the founder of the Riordan Clinic, was an author, molecular doctor, and one of the large doses of nutrients that he recommended was, intravenous vitamin C. And, after he began to show success giving high doses of vitamin C to cancer patients, there was an attempt to explain why this worked, why this was as successful as it was, and what we found out is that, the cancer cell, because it has shifted to the glycolysis, which is, using up 50 times more sugar than a cell normally would because of the the nature of glycolysis. 00:13:26:11 - 00:13:53:01 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD It was sucking in a lot of vitamin C, which has a molecular structure similar to sugar. It's, actually in all creatures, vitamin C is made from glucose. But, in the cell as it builds up the level of vitamin C. There is another feature that you mentioned earlier is that cancer cells thrive on iron. They they, they, they eat up as much iron as they can. 00:13:53:01 - 00:14:18:18 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD But when vitamin C comes in contact with the iron inside the cell, it it is reduced to a form that it it reacts with oxygen and creates hydrogen peroxide. And it actually starts to kill the cell from the inside out. At least that's been our narrative. But I'm wondering if high dose vitamin C is through. This same mechanism is actually starting to kill fungal cells as well. 00:14:18:18 - 00:14:46:03 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And and as a way and in a way, it's helping to boost the immune system. And so the intriguing part of your theory is that if cancer is an infection, we we have a number of different tools that we can use, not only I.V. vitamin C, not only antifungal medicines which may come into play, but then correcting the terrain and, helping the cell begin to function more normally again, to heal. 00:14:46:03 - 00:15:14:13 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD The fact that we could actually heal a cancer cell is really not part of the conventional dialog. It's mostly we have to kill the cancer cells. So what you're saying is that with this new perspective on the origin of cancer, it's kind of giving us a whole new set of, opportunities to regain control of the cancer and help the patient restore themselves back to good health. 00:15:14:15 - 00:15:39:05 Mark Lintern Yes. We're essentially helping the body and helping the cells to heal themselves through, essentially eliminating the pathogen that's causing the problem in the first place. Now there's a large body of evidence showing that antifungal drugs in particular, say, h a cholestérol is, has efficacy against a broad range of cancers. And that's being studied in alignment. 00:15:39:07 - 00:16:05:09 Mark Lintern And another one of the features that we look at, the repurposed drugs, as well as I've even to say, a lot of the repurposed drugs that we see seem to have efficacy and being spoken about you and utilized, such as statins that been dissolved anti-parasitic drugs, even doxycycline, metformin, when I've gone in to look at these, they're all also antifungal in their own right. 00:16:05:11 - 00:16:28:19 Mark Lintern So you have this dual process where and I'm wondering, are we inadvertently treating the disease through these, using these, repurposed drugs without realizing that we're actually, targeting the fungus that's driving the disease inadvertently? Because we're not, we're not. We don't realize that's what we're targeting. We don't realize that the drugs are actually using are actually antifungal as well. 00:16:28:19 - 00:16:52:16 Mark Lintern So there's a huge element to my research that all points in all funnels down to this, one underlying cause, which is potentially the involvement and the influence of the fungal pathogen. But there's many different drugs, and even natural compounds which seem to have effect against cancer. Never could really explain why until you start throwing in this fungal element. 00:16:52:18 - 00:17:30:16 Mark Lintern So we have this point about, curcumin or so purifying or bromelain from pineapples. When you select when you present them to cancer cells and, and healthy cells, they selectively kill the cancer cells, through the natural process of apoptosis, which is said to be damaged, and malfunction is the reason why cancer forms. However, that's where part of my, my idea around the suppression, side of things came from, because it was very clear that OCS fighting cancer was still operational and apoptosis can still be, enacted by cells. 00:17:30:18 - 00:17:52:15 Mark Lintern And when you look at it through that perspective, you can see where you can kind of explain why these natural compounds seem to have an effect against those cancer cells, because, what you're effectively doing is you're killing some good pathogen, within the cell with those compounds because they're anti-microbial. The two really interesting, compounds that I like to bring up is, is honey. 00:17:52:17 - 00:18:14:16 Mark Lintern So honey is effectively sugar. And as you mentioned earlier, cancer cells absorb a high rate of sugars when they feed it so effectively. Honey is primarily sugar based. And we would expect that to, feed the disease. And yet in many studies, it's shown in vivo studies and in vitro studies that it kills the cancer cells. No. Why would that be the case? 00:18:14:18 - 00:18:40:18 Mark Lintern Well, honey is highly anti-microbial. There is a peroxide element to it as well. We're reacting with the iron. But also there's, there's non-pro oxide Hollies and those hollies also killed cancer. So it must be the anti-microbial aspect here. But again, silver is another intriguing, compound because, the body doesn't require silver. It's not a nutrient. 00:18:40:20 - 00:19:12:10 Mark Lintern So if our body isn't actually cells on actually using silver, what other features of silver can possibly explain the reason why cancer cells decide to commit apoptosis? And that's because silver is highly anti-microbial. This is well known. So yeah, this is exciting because there's many substances out there that can actually target cancer cells. And I think my theory is helping to explain why that is a possibility, why, and explain the consistency between them all. 00:19:12:12 - 00:19:37:00 Mark Lintern And then that gives us hope in the sense that, if that's occurring and it is because of the fungal pathogen that all these compounds are actually targeting, then we can just increase our awareness of targeting the fungal pathogen with all the other legalities where we're, using anyway, and then see if there's, much benefit, more beneficial effect. 00:19:37:02 - 00:20:02:21 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yeah. All of this kind of ties in to, in the alternative world, you know, we're, we're moving more to an integrative approach here at our center. But in the early days, we were thought of as being alternative approaches to cancer. Initially, you know, most people would say, if you get cancer, you need to change your diet, you need to eat more colorful fruits and veg, mostly vegetables, some fruits as well. 00:20:02:23 - 00:20:32:23 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And the question has always been, why does that work? And where the fungal theory kind of comes in, at least in my thinking, is that fungi are the enemy. In many cases, not always, but in many cases, they're the enemy of the plant world. And so the plant that is basically, a place where hundreds of phytonutrients are manufactured, it's a pharmaceutical, factory for for phytonutrients. 00:20:32:23 - 00:21:02:17 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And we know that phytonutrients, many phytonutrients are effective against, cancer cells. And so what I'm thinking is that when people are eating more of these particular plants and getting the phytonutrients, they are enlisting that faculty of the plant to protect itself against fungi. If as you build that up in the body, it's it's actually suppressing the growth of the fungi in the cancer cell. 00:21:02:17 - 00:21:14:13 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And so this becomes a kind of, justification for people making important dietary changes in their effort to control their cancer growth. 00:21:14:15 - 00:21:40:19 Mark Lintern Absolutely. And the really interesting thing is when you look at, tumors, there's an enzyme that's upregulated and it's a C, P1B1 enzyme. And that is a pretty much a marker of cancer because it's only regulated in tumors. Now, that enzyme converts natural compounds as well as natural compounds into compounds that can kill cancer cells. 00:21:40:21 - 00:22:14:22 Mark Lintern So reservoir control is converted by the enzyme into, penis at all, I think. I'm not sure if I pronounce that right. However. What what this what the research around this enzyme showing is that, there is this medicinal mechanism in our cells that has developed as we've evolved, as we've consumed these foods, to utilize the natural antimicrobial compounds in these plants in order to kill off disease. 00:22:14:24 - 00:22:49:15 Mark Lintern Now, the interesting thing about that enzyme that forms part of a, a pathway, that is an antifungal initiation pathway. So what you have is effectively the cell is very intelligently, utilizing an antifungal pathway. But within that pathway, it's it's, What's the word I'm looking for? It's incorporated an enzyme that is able to then also at the same time utilize the antifungal, antimicrobial compounds in the plants that we consume. 00:22:49:17 - 00:23:14:10 Mark Lintern So it's a very intelligent system. And it just highlights how food is medicine. And how this is again, is linked to fungal pathogens or pathogens in general. And this enzyme in particular, as it's part of the antimicrobial pathway, is upregulated just in cancer cells. So it's it's very interesting to see that there's all this information out there and how it's coming together to show us how health actually works. 00:23:14:14 - 00:23:29:07 Mark Lintern And I think the important thing to note is that these are, if you're going to treat yourself well, you're going to look at, using a diet. It needs to be an organic based diet, because that's where these phytochemicals, more concentrated. 00:23:29:09 - 00:23:57:06 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yeah. And ab at conferences up in Canada that I attended maybe ten, 12 years ago, there was a group of British scientists that brought in the whole concept of cell vessels, and that cell vessels were using this pathway, as a way to kill cancer cells. And it it fit in the sense that it was plant based. It was rich in colorful plants and that it did have a significant effect for cancer patients. 00:23:57:06 - 00:24:11:22 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And it was nontoxic. This is the other feature that, you know, we've been looking for. And what the Reardon Clinic has stood for is what are the nontoxic ways that we can help patients defend themselves against the continued growth of cancer cells? 00:24:11:24 - 00:24:37:18 Mark Lintern Okay. Yes, exactly. So, Jerry Potter and Dan Burke were two guys from, De Montfort University in the UK who discovered the salvage diesel restaurants. They were initially, looking at this, see what they wouldn't be an enzyme. And they were trying to produce pro drugs. So a drug that would, you know, not be effective until it was administered, absorbed into the cell, and then the enzyme would activate it. 00:24:37:20 - 00:25:00:09 Mark Lintern And in that process and I think, Jerry, I think it was Jerry who realized that the structure, the molecular structure of the products he was using was similar to the of the structure of some compounds he'd already studied in nature. So then he then he searched for those compounds and they found them in, in, a number of, fruits and vegetables. 00:25:00:11 - 00:25:28:01 Mark Lintern And it's these phytonutrients, these, these cell vegetables, which he gave them the name Sylvester Rose. And what he found was that they, operate in a similar way to the project. In fact, they operate just like a project, and they bind to the same enzyme. And that anti-microbial, beneficial compare. That beneficial compounds are released into the cell for the benefit of us. 00:25:28:03 - 00:26:00:23 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yeah. And so, I'm kind of thinking along the line here of how, let's see, I had this all in my mind just a second ago. That, Oh, I'm sorry, I got a little bit ahead of myself in terms of my thinking. That basically what we've thought in the past in terms of terrain and in terms of metabolism, we knew that that was a factor. 00:26:01:00 - 00:26:47:15 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD But and and I think the, the missing link in terms of discovering the fungal link to cancer was the fact that when pathologists would take pathological slides of cancer, of cancers, tumors and look at them, they were not seeing fungi in the slides. They were, they were it was not being, identified. And I think a cardinal part of the, of your book was there was a, a famous, researcher who went back and looked at thousands of slides and he was able to identify that there, that there were, that there were he could do, DNA, staining and find the fungal element in the slides. 00:26:47:15 - 00:26:50:01 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Am I correct on that? 00:26:50:03 - 00:26:52:08 Mark Lintern Yeah. I think you refer to, Robert Strauss. 00:26:52:08 - 00:26:53:24 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Mr. Strauss. Yes. Continue. 00:26:54:05 - 00:27:16:12 Mark Lintern Yeah. So, so Robert Strauss, but he was, performing some research, on on tumors, and he was trying to administer, a chemotherapy drug, and it didn't work, and he couldn't understand why didn't work. But then he later discovered that there was, the sample was infected by particular bacteria. And bacteria is breaking down the chemotherapy drug before it actually reached the nucleus of the the tumor. 00:27:16:12 - 00:27:50:10 Mark Lintern He was he was, looking at. So, from that, he just he thought, well, could it be that there are pathogens within the, in tumors? So he went back and he looked looked for bacteria and, fungal pathogens over a period of time in about 35 different tumor types. And he found through, next generation DNA sequencing, he found through he found that, yes, there were fungal pathogens and bacterial pathogens, in all of the, so and many others have corroborated his findings. 00:27:50:10 - 00:28:16:18 Mark Lintern And what we're now finding is that there is a tumor associated, microbiome and largely, consisting of pathogens that that work synergistically together. And there's plenty of other evidence to show that, when you take out particular fungal pathogens, you can reduce the tumor and stop it from growing. When you reintroduce those pathogens, it grows again. 00:28:16:20 - 00:28:44:10 Mark Lintern So there's a direct correlation now that we can see. And with that, that research, it's now been postulated that those hallmarks we talked of earlier, it's been postulated that maybe, the fungal microbiome should be considered as a specific hormone because it has at the recognizing has an incredible amount of influence in the mouth. But there are ongoing studies to try and determine what that influences. 00:28:44:12 - 00:29:41:22 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD So getting more to the practical side, the implications of your findings, how does this intersect now with the growing interest in the metabolic approach to cancer? And, and the, the whole issue of terrain and looking at how certain behaviors, experiences, dietary factors, lack of sleep, stress, various things, obviously environmental toxins, all these things have an impact on our body in such a way that it allows the ever present fungi, which I assume, you know, we we are all exposed to fungi all the time, but allows them to get a deeper foothold in the cell and to make this conversion of the cell into a fungal growth media, as opposed to being 00:29:41:22 - 00:29:50:20 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD a healthy cell. Is that is that playing into your whole understanding of this fungal link to cancer? 00:29:50:22 - 00:30:22:02 Mark Lintern Absolutely. It's it's it's a terrain based disease is a terrain based metabolic antifungal disease, if you really want to put it that way. In the sense that I'm not saying that you get infected by a fungal pathogen and you'll get cancer. You won't. It's an opportunistic infection. So if you are damaging your terrain, your producing environment, in which, pathogens that are present can take advantage of that because they feed on the iron, they feed on the lactic acid. 00:30:22:02 - 00:30:56:06 Mark Lintern That's being produced in inflammatory conditions. Both iron and lactic acid suppress the immune system. So straight away they're in a chronic inflammatory terrain. You have two mediums that effectively benefit the infiltration of the pathogen into damaged tissue, because you're suppressing the immune system at the site of damage. So the whole idea is to carry on, treating the way that, you would normally treat from a, terrain based perspective and a metabolic perspective. 00:30:56:08 - 00:31:32:09 Mark Lintern But also looking at the microbiome, because the microbiome obviously keeps fungal pathogens in check. So the idea is with the theory relating to all these are the theories and how to target the terrain. The microbiome and abnormal metabolism is that it's an opportunistic infection. It only exists because there's chronic inflammation. And there's maybe problem with the metabolism, the mitochondria within the cell, which mitochondria themselves are effectively, defenses, a defensive mechanism for the cell, as well as everything else they do is the energy producing factories of the cell. 00:31:32:09 - 00:32:07:01 Mark Lintern They they do so much more than just that. So it's look after the trait, it's it's reduced toxin exposure, nutrient deficiencies, eat, well, organic food, be, mindfully. Well, you know, meditate emotional state effects. And you stress levels affect inflammation within the body. They affect how your immune system works. So you want to make the environment hostile to infection by making the terrain, as healthy as it can be, so it can fight off this infection. 00:32:07:03 - 00:32:38:23 Mark Lintern Again. Look at the microbiome. Make sure that's as healthy and diverse as possible. And with the meta, the metabolic theory, the solution then is essentially to, restrict glucose and glutamine because they appear to be from that that theory perspective, the two key, fuels that drive the disease. So if you actually restrict glucose, what you're doing is you're restricting the primary fuel of the fungal pathogen itself. 00:32:39:00 - 00:33:02:15 Mark Lintern So you've got to imagine the pathogen is seen within inside the cells. And the cell is switched to the Warburg effect. Because that's that's one key feature of pathogen elimination. So the immune system will try and outcompete the pathogen, for glucose because the pathogen requires it as well as the immune cell. Now, what can happen has been shown in studies is that fungal pathogens actually can outcompete the immune system. 00:33:02:19 - 00:33:23:20 Mark Lintern And that's how they one of the many ways they suppress the immune response. So if you are able to, reduce the amount of glucose that is supplied to, the cancer cells, what you're going to do is also reduce the full of pathogens, primary food source. So really going to look at it through going through the cell. 00:33:23:22 - 00:34:00:02 Mark Lintern You can attack the cell from a metabolic standpoint. What you what you realize you're doing as well as you're also attacking this longer pathogen. Now, glutamine is a little bit controversial because we know glutamine does feed cancer cells. However, I'm looking into research which suggests that glutamine supplementation is something worth considering because from what I'm seeing, glutamine supplementation benefits the immune system and the microbiome and the gut more so that it benefits the tumor because glutamine is reduced in the body, at times of chronic illness. 00:34:00:02 - 00:34:35:15 Mark Lintern But there's still enough groups and includes the most abundant amino acid. There's still enough glutamine available for the tumor to actually absorb the required amount. But what we see is that the immune system is hampered because of this reduction in glutamine in chronic states. So there's a there's a lot of evidence to suggest that actually, if you supplement with glutamine, you can benefit the patient overall because you're benefiting the immune system more than you are benefiting the tumor because it's not actually regulating the glutamine. 00:34:35:15 - 00:35:02:24 Mark Lintern It's absorbing any more. If you increase the amount of glutamine in the body, necessarily, because it's only absorbing the required amount. So that's that's a topic worth exploring. I'm not saying, I'm not a clinician, so I'm not saying something that the glutamine and what I'm saying is this is, another aspect of treatment that might be worth considering because the evidence is, is pushing more towards supplementing that. 00:35:02:24 - 00:35:34:02 Mark Lintern It is, trying to block it. So that's just something else to consider, but something also interesting. So it's again, it's looking after it's trade, the microbiome, doing similar metabolic restrictions, the ketogenic diet fasting and what have you. But being mindful of this nuances with glutamine and then trying to target the fungal pathogen. With specific drugs or natural organic based compounds. 00:35:34:04 - 00:35:35:07 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Let's, let's. 00:35:35:13 - 00:36:01:15 Mark Lintern So sorry, can I just say as well. Sure. Cancer cells are incredibly important as well. So you're likely to be targeting cancer stem cells through that regime if you go through, that kind of thing. But you also want to be very mindful of, choosing specific drugs or compounds as well that, you know, like curcumin to be targeting the cancer stem cells because they are paramount. 00:36:01:16 - 00:36:29:23 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Okay, Mark, let's let's kind of shift gears here a little bit. I'm going to put you a little bit on the spot. Let's say God forbid you were diagnosed with cancer. Knowing what, you know, kind of let's kind of walk step by step. How would you do, what would you do in terms of your, interaction with your oncologist? 00:36:30:00 - 00:36:49:04 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD What kind of lifestyles things would you immediately pay attention to? In other words, just kind of for the audience listening in that maybe has been diagnosed with cancer, what would be somewhat of a step by step approach, looking at it from the perspective of the cancer resolution? 00:36:49:06 - 00:37:15:02 Mark Lintern Hopefully my colleagues would be open to, different concepts. So I would I have a PDA. In fact, I have two PDFs on my website. One is questions that you can ask your oncologist, that people can download for free. And the other one is, a PDF. Explaining my theory, summarizing my theory is a synopsis of my theory, essentially over nine pages, that if you download that, you can then provide that to your oncologist. 00:37:15:04 - 00:37:38:10 Mark Lintern So, you know, no ecologist will want to read the 600 pages or 500 pages of my book. So that's a good starting point, and I'll probably take that with me along with some of the some research papers that suggest that, an antifungal approach, with particular drugs, can be, effective and repurposed drugs as well. 00:37:38:10 - 00:38:04:03 Mark Lintern So I'd go along with that evidence, with the notion of trying to speak to the ecologist, to view it for a different perspective and a metabolic perspective as well. And, and hopefully the, responsive to that. I'd also probably I bring on board a functional medicine practitioner, and I'd want to work on diet, I'd want to work on looking at ketogenic. 00:38:04:03 - 00:38:30:07 Mark Lintern So I'd want to look at, testing my body for a cancer markers, fungal infection markers to try to determine which fungal pathogens are present. So I would know particularly which type of drugs, to administer that were effective against those particular pathogens. I would look at how I could improve the microbiome. I do tests to find out if there are any stability of the microbiome. 00:38:30:09 - 00:38:57:14 Mark Lintern I'd love to look to, administer some, some fasting techniques, maybe use of the ketogenic diet. And, and generally in this case, it's a case of still experimenting because I it even though I've written the theory, I don't necessarily know in practice whether or not, what will work at the end of the day, because it depends on the pathogen. 00:38:57:16 - 00:39:33:02 Mark Lintern If there's resistance to, say, the antifungal drugs that I'm trying to use, the antifungal drugs might not even work for that particular type of pathogen. Yeah. Antifungal drugs as well can be, fungi static rather than fungus side or. So there's this element of then bring it in. Glutamine supplementation on top of that, because one of the big issues I noticed, I was listening to, a, a clinician talking about how he was treating the HIV patient who had, antifungal, sorry, an overt fungal infection. 00:39:33:02 - 00:39:55:10 Mark Lintern And he he threw every antifungal drug at this guy, and he couldn't get rid of the fungal, but look for the pathogen or the infection. And he realized that was because the immune system was so weak. Right? So, you know, it, you may have, a high white blood cell count, but if those white blood cells aren't able to access the glutamine, they need to function, properly. 00:39:55:12 - 00:40:19:24 Mark Lintern Then you have an issue that because they're going to be suppressed to a certain degree. I'd also look at the terrain of the tumor. How can we bring down the acidity of the terrain? What can we employ for that? Try and reduce, you know, try and eliminate the access to iron. But also, you know, it's a difficult one. 00:40:19:24 - 00:40:46:06 Mark Lintern I don't know all the answers necessarily to how best to proceed. I would need to ask the oncologist and ask the functional medicine practitioner, in order to see what works. But it would be a trial and error, approach, based on that notion of getting rid of the toxins, reducing chronic inflammation, looking at the microbiome, going down the metabolic route and trying to target through various means, metformin, if you want to get on that route. 00:40:46:08 - 00:41:13:11 Mark Lintern I've tried to target the pathogen and it depends what cells in the body, what type of cancer it is. You know, because, prostate cancer, is metabolically different. So, some cancers, a more seem to be glutamine dependent as opposed to, glucose dependent. So we have to play all these factors together. It's very nuanced. I would like to say there's a one size fits all, but it's it's not the case. 00:41:13:11 - 00:41:31:23 Mark Lintern It's a case of trying to follow the fundamentals that I've kind of laid out there. Maybe I've, I've even been say, if you want to do a pro oxidant approach, but then you've got to possibly increase your iron if you want to do that. So you increase, the amount of free radicals you're producing. It depends on the health of your mitochondria as well. 00:41:32:00 - 00:41:37:05 Mark Lintern So yeah, I'd like to say simple, but unfortunately it's not. 00:41:37:07 - 00:42:03:13 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD No. I, and and that's what we find when we work with patients is that it's a process of orchestration. You know, there's many different elements that go into this. And I think your answer really belies the fact that many cancer patients feel overwhelmed. So being able to form a therapeutic alliance, as you say, with a conventional oncologist, that can be, a bit tricky itself. 00:42:03:15 - 00:42:32:04 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD But then to get the functional, approach in there, to get your family involved, to get your eating habits, look, take a look at all of those making sure you've got your stressors, you're dealing with that. There's oftentimes we find people have, repressed PTSD type stuff that they need to deal with. It really is a symphony of changes that people have to make, but they can't make them all at once. 00:42:32:04 - 00:43:03:01 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And so it's that idea that they are willing to take charge of their own destiny to a degree, even though they will have to rely heavily upon, their experts that can support them in their efforts to find what's important for them, the individual pathway pathways that they need to do regarding the tumor type, the, the home situation, the financial situation, so many variables go into this. 00:43:03:03 - 00:43:33:09 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And, it can be quite overwhelming for a number of people, but at least to me, the number one thing is a sense of realistic hope. Not that where is this is not some kind of a dream or or or just a, some kind of kooky therapy or theory. This has very solid foundations in it that points in specific directions and choices that people can make, that can really help them dig out of this cancer hole very effectively if they can. 00:43:33:09 - 00:43:35:08 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Orchestrated. 00:43:35:10 - 00:43:57:04 Mark Lintern Yes. Well, there's a case study in the book where, a term a terminal cancer, pancreatic cancer patient, developed an overt fungal infection. So his treating physician to get rid of the fungal infection or to get it under control, administered it on his own. So a broad spectrum antifungal drug for nine months, and he was given a terminal diagnosis. 00:43:57:06 - 00:44:25:18 Mark Lintern And then when the tumor was looked, looked at after nine months, it had been reduced and it was now respectable. And he was effectively cured with the surgery. And the, the cancer didn't return. So the, the clinician, suggested that this was down to the antifungal drug alone. So, you know, I'm not saying that one antifungal drug will cure everyone or anything like that. 00:44:25:18 - 00:44:52:04 Mark Lintern What I'm saying is there's hope because there's a new potential way of looking at the disease. And if we if we are able to target this, from an antifungal perspective, whether it's antifungal juice or antifungal natural compounds, then, it's shown in the medical literature, literature that there's definitely there's definitely a, evidence to suggest that it's a direction that can be very beneficial. 00:44:52:06 - 00:45:33:12 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yeah. I, I feel like your book, your theory, what you've said in this podcast, it substantiates the fact that people who do become involved in their lifestyle changes as part of a orchestrated, response to their diagnosis. They now have a scientifically valid way of, documenting and, and, and demonstrating that there is a way home, there is a way to get to overcome the cancer because many, many people are pretty fatalistic. 00:45:33:16 - 00:46:06:07 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD You know, that the idea of getting cancer in this day and age, unfortunately, a lot of people don't make it. But you've opened a pathway that is logical and scientific that if properly, implemented in that person's life, given all the specifics and uniqueness of of their situation, the tumor type, the family situation, all of these things, if that can be properly put together into a orchestrated whole, they have a really good chance now of overcoming the disease. 00:46:06:09 - 00:46:22:22 Mark Lintern Yeah, that's very nice of you to say so. And that was the goal really, because, I wrote the book for the layperson, for my family and friends, really initially to so, so that they wouldn't have to come to me and that they could see the evidence for themselves. It's very hard to convince someone without them seeing the evidence from the cells. 00:46:22:24 - 00:46:46:11 Mark Lintern So the book is written for the layperson. And in there I have, potential solutions section at the back. I discuss other medicines as well. And it just goes through a process of how you can, generally create, your own protocol, a way of looking at how to approach the disease, you know, talking with your oncologist and advice things. 00:46:46:11 - 00:47:11:01 Mark Lintern So it's almost a guide, really. So it's helpful in that respect. But it is we do often need to be, administers of our own health. We can't leave it up to the medical, establishment essentially. I mean, their intentions are good, but unfortunately that they don't seem to be following the latest science or there's a delay, for them to catch up to the latest science, so to speak. 00:47:11:01 - 00:47:31:23 Mark Lintern So chemotherapy does work for some. Not saying it doesn't work at all, but, we know that there are we see so much benefit in people who approach this from a holistic point of view. It just makes perfect sense. You want to help the body regenerate. You want to help the body as to suppress inflammation and help the body repair itself. 00:47:32:00 - 00:47:53:20 Mark Lintern So this is why we have, I think, a problem with the mainstream, conventional treatment is that, like you said earlier on, it's attacking the body is attacking the cells rather than helping them to regenerate themselves. And I feel like it's almost a one trick pony from that perspective. They're attacking. It's actually attacking. And when the body resists because it can repair itself, it's very good at doing that. 00:47:53:20 - 00:48:22:06 Mark Lintern When it resists the treatment. There is no nothing else to help from the conventional point of view. And that's where people seek alternative perspectives. It's what we really need to do is get people to think holistically first. And you may want to still use chemotherapy. And there's certainly evidence in using low dose chemotherapy, rather than high dose chemotherapy, that showing some benefit as well. 00:48:22:06 - 00:48:48:15 Mark Lintern But it's a case of integrating these together, and not focusing on one aspect and thinking that's it, and putting the responsibility onto, particular doctors. Because ultimately it's your life, it's your responsibility, and that there is so much information out there and so many people that have helped themselves through doing a holistic, alternative approach and complementary approach to, traditional medicine. 00:48:48:17 - 00:49:15:02 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD I would have thought that, you know, the success is with immunotherapy in conventional oncology might be a clue that would maybe lead, oncologists conventional oncologists, to think more in terms that maybe there is an infectious component to this, since the immune system seems to be the star of the show right now. That's where some of the excess successes are really being seen. 00:49:15:02 - 00:49:35:03 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD It's not a total success, but it's a it's it's basically using some pretty high powered immunotherapy weapons. But at least it points us in the direction that if we can support the immune system and make it stronger, that that we have a chance to give people longer, better lives. 00:49:35:05 - 00:49:59:21 Mark Lintern Yeah. Yeah, it is important. I think it is, highlighting that maybe pathogens are involved. I would have thought the fact that antifungal drugs, for instance, would highlight that there may be a fungal component that was one of the big, big, big things for me when I came across the research. But I realize that the it's it's it's it depends on what lens you view the disease through. 00:49:59:21 - 00:50:19:13 Mark Lintern That's I think that's the problem. That's that's the, the thing I'm really trying to push here. I'm trying to shift that lens. And that's really the message. Because when you view the disease through the process of, its malfunction, the cell is the problem. Then all you're going to do is attack the cell. You're not going to look at it as a perspective. 00:50:19:13 - 00:50:40:18 Mark Lintern You want to heal the cell in any particular way. So when if you look at antifungal drugs, for instance, and you see there's an effect and you believe that it's the pathway within the cell, that's the problem, or the DNA is is mutated or the cell is development of its own, you're going to draw a different conclusion to how I would draw the conclusion based on the lenses I'm flipping through. 00:50:40:18 - 00:51:02:12 Mark Lintern So you draw the conclusion of, oh, the antifungal drug must be directly manipulating, a particular pathway. And that's why we see the change. Whereas I'm saying yes, okay, that you can manipulate that particular pathway or that particular pathway changes when it's used. But just it could also be the fact that the pathogen itself is manipulating that pathway. 00:51:02:12 - 00:51:21:13 Mark Lintern And when you target it with an antifungal drug or whatever else it is, and you kill the pathogen that pathway is no longer suppressed. That pathway then changes and you see that change occurring. It's not necessarily that the drug has targeted the pathway directly. It's targeted the pathogen that was manipulating that pathway. So this is a different lens. 00:51:21:15 - 00:51:46:22 Mark Lintern It's the same lens that, ravaged. Johnson was pointing out. He was showing that a particular drug didn't work on a, tumor sample. That's because the pathogen was, breaking that down before it could get into the cell. So. And even he, he says, and I thought I paraphrased one of his quotes that, given the evidence he puts forward, we should now look at virtually everything we know about cancer through a microbiome lens. 00:51:46:24 - 00:52:00:07 Mark Lintern So, you know, he's suggesting that a lot of the results we get in a lot of the conclusions were drawing, a possibly incorrect because we're not factor in the influence of the pathogen. 00:52:00:09 - 00:52:12:08 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD How has this changed your life? Do you do you, are you seeing that there is momentum being gained, or what would you say the, prognosis is for this catching halt? 00:52:12:10 - 00:52:36:00 Mark Lintern Yeah. I'm currently working with a group of scientists and clinicians to test the theory. So we meet every month. Doctor Natia winters is one of them. And they volunteer their time, and that group is now growing. We were quite close to actually establishing, a concept note for then getting funding for the initial first trial. 00:52:36:02 - 00:52:58:01 Mark Lintern I've got a growing Facebook group, where we discuss the theory and, implications for treatment. So people are, welcome to join that. It's been taken on board by many, many scientists and clinicians. Now, I've had very good feedback from a lot of people. Some resistance, but there's been no, major contention at the moment against the theory. 00:52:58:01 - 00:53:22:23 Mark Lintern No, no, no, no particular hole or issue. That is, I've major concern, which is very, very promising. But at the same time, I do need more scrutiny. It was well received when I did my, event in February where I was, you know, I presented my theory in front of ten at a panel of ten cancer international cancer experts who grilled me over that six hours. 00:53:22:23 - 00:53:48:08 Mark Lintern And that was in front of an audience of over 200 medical medical professionals who also provided questions. And they voted to accept and acknowledge the theory. 7.4 out of ten was the result of the average vote. So that was an incredible, acknowledgment of the significance of the theory. But yeah, it's it's growing. It's just slow to to be, disseminated, into the wider public. 00:53:48:08 - 00:54:10:05 Mark Lintern And it's for the public. I kind of believe that change will only happen, really, from the grassroots, from the public standpoint, talking to their own colleges, I'm getting feedback from patients saying they've provided my book or they provided the free PDF I provide. There are colleges you're interested in and even other doctors have, told their patients to have a look at it. 00:54:10:05 - 00:54:30:16 Mark Lintern So it's definitely gaining traction. It's a little bit slow at the moment, as only theories, I suppose will be. There's going to be resistance there. And I'm just really at the moment trying to get on podcasts and interviews and go to conferences to speak to scientists just to get the word out there. More. I just wish it could get out, quicker than it actually currently is. 00:54:30:16 - 00:54:32:17 Mark Lintern But that will will take a little bit of time. 00:54:32:22 - 00:54:44:03 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Is it possible that it could be put into a protocol, or would that would that. Defuze. Some of the robustness of the theory? 00:54:44:05 - 00:55:04:02 Mark Lintern I think it can. And that's one thing I'm trying to work on at the moment. As we said earlier, it's not one size fits all. It would be have to be a base protocol, which, like I say, is based on literally the microbiome, the metabolism targeting cancer stem cells and fungal pathogens. So but then the nuances would be you'd have to it all depends on your particular health. 00:55:04:04 - 00:55:24:23 Mark Lintern Yes. So you have at the very time your metabolic health, the type of pathogens that are present, if we can identify them, the type of, you know, do you react to a particular antifungal drugs or particular natural compounds and in the same manner they do what is involved? They would have to be eked out, over and above the basic protocol. 00:55:24:23 - 00:55:33:24 Mark Lintern But yes, I do think there's a basic protocol I could produce. That would be a good starting point for most patients. 00:55:34:01 - 00:55:54:04 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD We are planning to have where we're well into the plan to have a conference in the early part of November of this year called Cancer Care Reimagined. And I'm wondering if there be any chance you'd be able to come over to the United States and do a presentation at that conference. 00:55:54:06 - 00:55:57:04 Mark Lintern I would absolutely love. Wow. 00:55:57:06 - 00:56:41:05 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And we we were hoping you'd be interested because the whole idea is to, the second part of the title is the rise of Integrate Integrative oncology, because we think this is a big step forward for the whole field of oncology, but unfortunately, not a whole lot of people see that. And so we're trying to get influential speakers who are giving us a, a different lens, a different way to look at cancer, such that more people will be more successful because the rates are growing and, it's it's becoming overwhelming and people are looking for ways that they can, you know, find a pathway to better health. 00:56:41:07 - 00:56:59:20 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD And this, to me, represents a very sound, scientific, logical pathway that that pulls together really a lot of different theories and into a unified theory of, potentiality that, we have not had for a long time. 00:56:59:22 - 00:57:13:04 Mark Lintern Yes. Providing I have availability at the time of the conference, I would I would definitely love to come across and be part of that. That's, that's an honor for me. I would also like to say, and possibly recommend, Robin Daly. Do mentioned it him in the book. 00:57:13:04 - 00:57:14:18 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Oh, Robin. Yes. 00:57:14:20 - 00:57:40:19 Mark Lintern So so he he, founded the cancer care charity. Yes. A life which deals with integrative, cancer treatments and advice for patients. And he he's just one, been awarded an MBA, by the king, for his 20 year service in with that charity. And he's going to be in America fairly soon. Actually, he's been invited over as a result of of his award and his work. 00:57:40:19 - 00:57:59:10 Mark Lintern So I'm not sure if he would want to contact him or me provide you with. I can provide you with a contact through him. And it may be good to have us both conference. I don't know, I can I can speak to him about that. He's he's very, up on the latest trends with integrative, and complementary medicine. 00:57:59:12 - 00:58:04:05 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD I listen to all of your radio interviews that you had with him. He's a very good interviewer, too. 00:58:04:05 - 00:58:09:03 Mark Lintern So yes, he is. And that. Yes, that they were quite in-depth. 00:58:09:03 - 00:58:30:15 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD Yes, they were, they were great. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being on our podcast. Thank you for your courage. You know, tell you what, you're taking on a very, very, very big establishment here and, and almost a petrified idea of what to do about cancer. But I think, it's very compelling what you're doing. 00:58:30:15 - 00:58:46:09 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD You've you've written a wonderful book. You've got you've got this down. And so we're just now going to try to get the word out. So I'll be in touch with you and we'll see if we can, get things lined up for coming to America and spreading the good word. 00:58:46:11 - 00:58:49:12 Mark Lintern Looking forward to it. Thank you very much for allowing me on the show. It's been. 00:58:49:14 - 00:58:52:03 Dr. Ron Hunninghake, MD A pleasure. Thank you so much. 00:58:52:05 - 00:59:12:12 Narrator Thank you for listening to The Real Health podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. You can also find all of the episodes in show notes over at Real Health podcast.org. Also, be sure to visit RiordanClinic.org , where you will find hundreds of videos and articles to help you create your own version of real health.